# Michael Moore: SickO



## CellyCell (Sep 29, 2007)

Alright, I just got done watching this film and watching the Oprah special about it and if you haven't yet, here's a link to see it online:

SiCKO - Everyone Should Watch This Once (FULL MOVIE STILL AVAILABLE)

So yeah - most know Mr. Moore is all about propagandizing and yada yada but about the theme of this movie... American's Health Care &amp; the Insurance company profiting on it, what are your views and standpoints on it, as in the pros/cons?

People from different Countries - please voice your opinion as well, whether you dislike/like how your health care provider runs?

Would we [Americans] benefit from free health care, if not, why?

I hope the mods/Tony can allow a bit of debating back and forth as long as it's not personally attacking another and within reasons




.

I'm just curious at the responses and personal stories...


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## BeneBaby (Sep 30, 2007)

I haven't watched it yet...been meaning too, but I can't stand Michael Moore.

OT: My Best Friend Liz is working on her Masters in Health Administration. She currently works for Kaiser. She told me a whole long spiel about how Healthcare can be free. That is her dream...to formulate the the Free Healthcare Plan. I don't remember what she said though....I was in the middle of a few glasses of wine...hehe


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## CellyCell (Sep 30, 2007)

...you and wine. Haha.


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## Retro-Violet (Sep 30, 2007)

i saw that movie.

then asked my cousin if all the stuff that they get in france is true.

apprently it is, which made me really really really really pissed off.


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## CellyCell (Sep 30, 2007)

Doesn't it?

Like, I had a friend from UK who told me he had some shoulder problems and such and just walked to the doctor nearby. I asked him if he's insured and he goes, "you yanks and your backward thinking. it's free." All while my mom had to pay my $300 doctor bill for a TB shot since I'm not convered. And can't be covered because I'm over 18...

It's crazy because I've been longing to go to the doctor for check-ups to see if anything is wrong but can't. It's hard to find a decent job that works around my school schedule and actually gives you benefits. It's just another reason why I want to move to Europe. I know there are clearly some downfalls to free HC. But shoot, I'll take it if that means I won't be struggling in debt...


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## Aquilah (Sep 30, 2007)

Well, my degree is in Healthcare Management, and one of the things we learn about is how health insurance is in the "industry." I haven't watched the movie yet to form an opinion, but I do know I learned more about insurance than I care to know. I know a lot of the time employees are so to speak as "overcharged" for insurance through their employers, and it's simply because the employers premiums get higher and higher each year. Senior citizens aren't getting proper care due to not being able to afford health care, even with Medicare/Medicaid. Baby boomers are the being hit hardest too.

John's company wants almost half of a paycheck WEEKLY for insurance, and all they contribute is $35 a week! Needless to say, none of their employees use their insurance plan, or at least very few do. It's a weird, sad world with health insurance.


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## Kathy (Sep 30, 2007)

I haven't seen the movie yet, but I really want to! I, personally, like Michael Moore, even if he does get a bit over the top. At least he's talking about this stuff! I completely support Universal Healthcare and I have for a long time. I know it has it's pitfalls...no system is perfect. I just think it's absolutely pathetic that one of the richest countries in the world has 45 million people in it that don't have any healthcare coverage because they can't afford it, while these HMO executives are becoming millionaires!! Something is very wrong with that picture! We are the only industrialized country in the WORLD without Universal Healthcare.


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## BeneBaby (Sep 30, 2007)

I have lived almost my entire life without Healthcare. The times I was sick and had to go, I not only got treatment but also a heap of debt to go with it. Yay!!

American Healthcare blows...seriously.


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## Aquilah (Sep 30, 2007)

Originally Posted by *BeneBaby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have lived almost my entire life without Healthcare. The times I was sick and had to go, I not only got treatment but also a heap of debt to go with it. Yay!!
American Healthcare blows...seriously.

Oh yeah! It cost me less to have Kylie than it did to have surgery 3 months prior. The hour I was charged for my recovery room from surgery ($1k) was only $600 less than it cost me after my healthcare picked up from having Kylie! It was seriously like an overall difference of $7k! WTF!


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## BeneBaby (Sep 30, 2007)

I have a bad kidney and I get really serious kidney infections that require hospitalization. Stress is the prime trigger for my problem...so you can guess that I get them often. The last time I was in the Hospital for 2 weeks. The bill was close to 10k. I swear with Medical Bills alone I should file bankruptcy.


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## StereoXGirl (Sep 30, 2007)

Originally Posted by *CellyCell* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Doesn't it?
Like, I had a friend from UK who told me he had some shoulder problems and such and just walked to the doctor nearby. I asked him if he's insured and he goes, "you yanks and your backward thinking. it's free." *All while my mom had to pay my $300 doctor bill for a TB shot since I'm not convered. And can't be covered because I'm over 18...*

It's crazy because I've been longing to go to the doctor for check-ups to see if anything is wrong but can't. It's hard to find a decent job that works around my school schedule and actually gives you benefits. It's just another reason why I want to move to Europe. I know there are clearly some downfalls to free HC. But shoot, I'll take it if that means I won't be struggling in debt...

??? I'm 25 and I'm still covered on my dad's insurance?

Anyway, even if for some reason I WANTED to watch a Michael Moore movie, I wouldn't last more than one minute. Just seeing commercials with him in them annoys me to no end.


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## CellyCell (Sep 30, 2007)

That's insane!

Ugh, it just ticks me off thinking about this. It's sad when you really want to see the doctor as opposed to when you're younger and hating to go.


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## Kathy (Sep 30, 2007)

Originally Posted by *BeneBaby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have a bad kidney and I get really serious kidney infections that require hospitalization. Stress is the prime trigger for my problem...so you can guess that I get them often. The last time I was in the Hospital for 2 weeks. The bill was close to 10k. I swear with Medical Bills alone I should file bankruptcy. Wow, Manders!!! That really DOES blow!!! Have you tried getting a cheaper plan that would at least cover hospitalization? I know in NY there are some plans like that.


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## Geek (Sep 30, 2007)

We'll allow this thread as long as it doesn't turn political (since we know Mr Moore is a political wannabe) or personal attacks are kept out.

I don't know about Mr Moore's sicko movie at all, but I do know that he's an idiotic, hater of Americans and propagandist/lier and not what the US people stand for. If you believe and fall for his untruths, you should check yourself. You will never see famous leftists siding with him.(my only political part of this reply)

Believe me, you DON'T want free health care or socialized medicine, an option MIGHT be ok. I could write novels on this subject. Why do you think so many people come to the US to get health care? Cuz it's the best in the world, hands down(no offense to other countries). In Finland, where they have socialized medicine, people with any sort of money don't even THINK about using the free health care. They pay for it and the reason is that the health care is better. Reija has told me nightmares about their system. She could write a book on it since she has had a few surgeries for her Chrohn's disease. Plus, when she had teeth cavities filled in school, the use NO NOVACAINE. Free sounds so easy and cool but why have it if the care sucks? On another subject, I have some insider information that two major hospitals in Los Angeles will announce closing in the next 60-90 days, due to money issues....mostly cuz of illegals using the emergency room when they have a cold and never paying their bills.

The US has some serious issues on this subject, I can admit that.

IMHO, the US will never moved to free health care, the drug companies and the medical industry are all about money/ big business.


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## CellyCell (Sep 30, 2007)

Originally Posted by *StereoXGirl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif ??? I'm 25 and I'm still covered on my dad's insurance?
Anyway, even if for some reason I WANTED to watch a Michael Moore movie, I wouldn't last more than one minute. Just seeing commercials with him in them annoys me to no end.

My dad's insurance doesn't cover if I'm 18 and over. I think it was I had to be a full time student (16 units or more in college) and take certain classes to qualify for it - but that was awhile ago. Now there's no hope unless I go out and find myself a job that will cover me.


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## Aprill (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah I saw Sicko, and I think that it was very interesting.... I dont know what to believe


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## Kathy (Sep 30, 2007)

I agree that our current healthcare system is controlled by money and big business and pharmaceutical companies, however I do NOT believe that we'll never go to free healthcare or some version of it. People are getting fed up (as they should). Maybe if enough people showed they gave a sh&amp;t about it, they would do something about it! JMO


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## BeneBaby (Sep 30, 2007)

Yeah T, that's the thing. Nobody wants free healthcare from a Doc who doesn't know what their doing, but so many people go without any care at all for their entire lives. I feel like a big part of the health problems Americans have could be easily solved with preventative care throughout their lives. It's so frustrating. I mean if we can't get free care, could they at least make it lower cost. I can't tell you how many times I have been prescribed meds for an illness, only to not be able to afford the prescription. If the cost of getting a diagnosis isn't enough...you gotta take out a loan for the meds.

My Mother in Law is going through Chemo for inoperable Lung Cancer. She has NO health insurance. No one will insure her because of the cancer. Her chemo is $5000/ session. Her Meds are $1000 per week. Last Week she had a CT scan that she paid $4000 for. At this rate they will loose everything. She was reffered to UC Davis only to be turned down, they ONLY accept people with insurance. Why should it be that a person can only get treatment if they are rolling in the dough?? A SAD truth.


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## Kathy (Sep 30, 2007)

Originally Posted by *BeneBaby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yeah T, that's the thing. Nobody wants free healthcare from a Doc who doesn't know what their doing, but so many people go without any care at all for their entire lives. I feel like a big part of the health problems Americans have could be easily solved with preventative care throughout their lives. It's so frustrating. I mean if we can't get free care, could they at least make it lower cost. I can't tell you how many times I have been prescribed meds for an illness, only to not be able to afford the prescription. If the cost of getting a diagnosis isn't enough...you gotta take out a loan for the meds. 
My Mother in Law is going through Chemo for inoperable Lung Cancer. She has NO health insurance. No one will insure her because of the cancer. Her chemo is $5000/ session. Her Meds are $1000 per week. Last Week she had a CT scan that she paid $4000 for. At this rate they will loose everything. She was reffered to UC Davis only to be turned down, they ONLY accept people with insurance. Why should it be that a person can only get treatnebt if they are rolling in the dough?? A SAD truth.

My God...that just drives me crazy when I hear stuff like that! I am sooo sorry for her situation and I wish enough people would pay attention when they hear stories like hers and yours!


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## CellyCell (Sep 30, 2007)

Sucks Manders...

...and I agree with you Kaville.


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## emily_3383 (Sep 30, 2007)

It doesnt matter what you think of him the healthcare in this country sucks.


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## Geek (Sep 30, 2007)

Originally Posted by *emily_3383* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 

It doesnt matter what you think of him the healthcare in this country sucks. 


I agree that something should be done too


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## MindySue (Sep 30, 2007)

wow that does suck amanda. i feel sorry for her. when my mom went through chemo it cost thousands and thousands..and she was insured but that still doesnt count for everything..

i know that you have to wait FOREVER to get a simple perscription here (atleast what my bf has shared) i remember him going to the doctors to get a refill on his meds an he'd be gone hours. and if he actually had to go to the doctor, forget it, he'd be gone all day. it's nice to have the option though, if i have dual citizenship some day i will def be taking advantage of it..

by the way celly canada has it free, and canada also has phils rich brother


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## Annia (Sep 30, 2007)

Benebaby, you know there are foundations out there that will help pay for this, at least a part of it. Also, any good hospital will offer financial assistance.

I have seen one movie from Michael Moore and i liked it. I haven't seen Sicko and I don't know enough about his stuff to form an opinion.

Also, I can't relate to any one who has health care bills. I get free health care for life (where ever I go too), so I don't have any advice.


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## CellyCell (Sep 30, 2007)

Fine, I'll move to Canada with Phil's brother.

Europe &gt; Canada, remember that tho. Haha jk.


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## MindySue (Sep 30, 2007)

Haha it's cool

canada isnt as grand as i expected


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## Saje (Sep 30, 2007)

It is true that here in the U.S. - medicine is one of the best money can buy and I can say that from personal experience with my family.

However, I must say that I know some people who cant afford the plane ticket to get here like my family, or if they did, would have used up all of their money to afford whatever treatment they seek out. This system supports those who can afford it. Its the capitalism survival of the fittest.

Its not like every person out there has some hardcore illness (which is why people would want to come here to the US for treatment) but when it comes down to common illnesses such as colds, fevers or even a check-up and what nots, why do I still have to pay up the yinyang for that?


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## katnahat (Sep 30, 2007)

Originally Posted by *Tony(admin)* /img/forum/go_quote.gif We'll allow this thread as long as it doesn't turn political (since we know Mr Moore is a political wannabe) or personal attacks are kept out.
I don't know about Mr Moore's sicko movie at all, but I do know that he's an idiotic, hater of Americans and propagandist/lier and not what the US people stand for. If you believe and fall for his untruths, you should check yourself. You will never see famous leftists siding with him.(my only political part of this reply)

Believe me, you DON'T want free health care or socialized medicine, an option MIGHT be ok. I could write novels on this subject. Why do you think so many people come to the US to get health care? Cuz it's the best in the world, hands down(no offense to other countries). In Finland, where they have socialized medicine, people with any sort of money don't even THINK about using the free health care. They pay for it and the reason is that the health care is better. Reija has told me nightmares about their system. She could write a book on it since she has had a few surgeries for her Chrohn's disease. Plus, when she had teeth cavities filled in school, the use NO NOVACAINE. Free sounds so easy and cool but why have it if the care sucks? On another subject, I have some insider information that two major hospitals in Los Angeles will announce closing in the next 60-90 days, due to money issues....mostly cuz of illegals using the emergency room when they have a cold and never paying their bills.

The US has some serious issues on this subject, I can admit that.

IMHO, the US will never moved to free health care, the drug companies and the medical industry are all about money/ big business.

I agree with every word Tony.
I would like to add that nothing in life is free. Nationalized healthcare will cost everyone who actually pays taxes. The only way to support the BILLIONS of dollars nationalized healthcare would cost per year would be to take the money from each of us. Of course, the people who don't pay taxes will once again gain from the taxpayers.

I'm not saying the "free" healthcare will be good either. Just last week on Bill O'Reilly's radio show a woman from Canada called in talking about her son that died because her son's doctor appointment was 6 months away. If he had been diagnosed right away he would have lived. Next her husband got sick. Guess what they did? They came to the US to get a diagnosis and treatment for him. He got better. She said they would NEVER use Canada's "FREE" healthcare again. Free isn't worth anything if you're dead.

Don't forget about the crooks that make a living off of suing doctors. With nationalized healthcare the doctors, nurses and everyone else in the hospitals will work for the government. Who will the crooks or even the people that actually get hurt by a doctor sue? The US government will be the entity getting sued. Go ahead and add another billion dollars a year to that FREE healthcare bill for all of those malpractice suits.

Free healthcare is not the answer. Congress should put regulations on "ambulance chaser" lawyers and crooks that sue to STEAL money. These people are part of the reason for the high cost of healthcare. When people sue (fraudulently or legitimately) the doctors (if they lose) must pay against their malpractice insurance. That raises their insurance rates. To supplement those costs doctors raise their rates. When the doctors raise their rates, guess what?? The insurance companies raise OUR rates. I know this isn't all of it, but it is a big part of it.

As Tony said, and I totally agree, don't believe what Michael Moore says. He's nothing but a radical left-winger that wants government to GIVE everything to people that won't work for a good life and penalize people who do.

Originally Posted by *emily_3383* /img/forum/go_quote.gif It doesnt matter what you think of him the healthcare in this country sucks. Why does it "suck"?


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## CellyCell (Sep 30, 2007)

Originally Posted by *Saje* /img/forum/go_quote.gif It is true that here in the U.S. - medicine is one of the best money can buy and I can say that from personal experience with my family. 
However, I must say that I know some people who cant afford the plane ticket to get here like my family, or if they did, would have used up all of their money to afford whatever treatment they seek out. This system supports those who can afford it. Its the capitalism survival of the fittest.

Its not like every person out there has some hardcore illness (which is why people would want to come here to the US for treatment) but when it comes down to common illnesses such as colds, fevers or even a check-up and what nots, why do I still have to pay up the yinyang for that?

I think that sums up my whole feeling best thusvfar.We do have the best resources, best doctors yada yada - but when it comes to like you said, "common illnesses" or check-ups/follow-ups, certain emergency stays - all that should be free. I don't mind if it's taken out of my taxes, I mean... a whole bunch of money is already taken away on I don' know what now. Fixing roads?

Everyone should be covered no matter what. Millions of us are living without it...if it cost billions of more out of our taxes in order for everyone one to be insured, so what? We're talking about the people who get declined treatments or can't afford it...we're talking about people period.

Forgot to mention, the prices are ridiculous high for surgeries and even simple visits. $300 for my TB shot? Oh, I'm so no over that... they basically take a tiny needle and blow air or something into my arm. And that's it. $300 dollars bill next week. My friend has anxiety and his visit to the Doctor cost him $100 for water and tylenol. Bah.

Here's a little exceprt from the Oprah show:

Quote:
Princeton University professor Uwe Reinhardt, one of the nation's leading authorities on healthcare economics, says the healthcare debate all boils down to a single question. "Should the child of a gas station attendant have the same chance of staying healthy or getting cured, if sick, as the child of a corporate executive?" he asks.
Professor Reinhardt says people need to decide whether medical care should be like public educationâ€”where every American simply has a right to itâ€”or if it should be treated like a luxury good. Currently, he says healthcare is like fine diningâ€¦if you have the money, you get it, and if you don't, you won't.

When hurricanes or other natural disasters hit, Professor Reinhardt says the government steps in to help victims. "That's social insurance," he says. "It's a natural disaster, and I would say if a lady in Mississippi has breast cancer, isn't that a natural disaster, too?"

As Michael points out in _Sicko_, Americans rely on many socialized services, like the police department, public libraries and the fire department. The U.S. Army even provides socialized medicine for all enlisted men. "I'd like to call it Christianized medicine because this is what Jesus would do, right?" he says. "He wouldn't let the child of a gas station attendant go without."

Quote:




As consumers, Americans shop around for everything from cars to clothes and computers, but Professor Reinhardt says we are powerless when it comes to buying healthcare.

"Suppose I took you to [a department store], blindfolded you, pushed you through the door and said, 'Find yourself a nice blouse that fits you and make sure the price is right.' That's roughly how we buy healthcare," he says. "If you go to the hospital, what do you know about the prices? What do you know you will get? Have you ever picked your own anesthesiologist?"

It's time to simplify things, Professor Reinhardt says. In addition to current plans, he says the government should mandate that every insurance company offer the same standard package. "[Then] there wouldn't be any question of what is covered or what isn't covered," he says.

To get healthcare coverage for every man, woman and child in the United States, Professor Reinhardt believes it would cost about $100 billion in additional government spending. That's the same amount the government spends in nine months to fund the war in Iraq, he says.

It seems like a lot of moneyâ€¦until you look at what Americans are spending billions on every year. According to our research, consumers spend $3 billion a year on custom ringtones for cell phones, $45 billion on lottery tickets, $94 billion on beer and $537 billion in restaurants.


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## Shelley (Sep 30, 2007)

I have heard about the movie but haven't seen it yet.

I live in Canada where medical care is free. Some Provinces you pay a yearly or monthly fee? but I believe it is low. Maybe MUT members in other Provinces can divulge this information since I don't know much the details.

Where I live I don't pay anything. It has advantages and disadvantages. If I want to see a specialist I may have to wait anywhere from 6 months to a year (emergency you would see one immediately) People who need hip and knee replacements are on a two to three year waiting list for surgery. The Gov't is attempting to change this.This is in my Province. I know other Provinces probably experience similar problems. There is a shortage of family doctors and specialists. If Canadians have the money they do go to the USA for treatment, many become frustrated with the long waits. My dad's friend was frustrated waiting for his knee to be replaced in our Province, couldn't afford the cost of surgery in the USA, so he headed to India because the price of surgery was cheaper. He said the care was really good and no problems occured.

I was lucky that a new surgeon recently moved to my city. It didn't take long for an appt since she just started working here and my wait for surgery was only a few months. A cancellation came up so I had it sooner than expected. Otherwise I was looking at a year wait to see a plastic surgeon just for a consultation.

The drawbacks are the long waits but I am also glad that I don't have to worry about medical bills and payment.


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## BeneBaby (Sep 30, 2007)

Originally Posted by *katnahat* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why does it "suck"? Why doesn't it suck?? Sure we have the best Doctors the most advanced treatment...blah blah. But what good does it do if a majority of our citizens cannot afford it???? It's like having a Luxury Hotel in the Ghetto. It looks nice, too bad nobody stays in it and it's a waste. 
Sure we have some programs like Medi-Cal. But Medi-Cal barely covers the minimum. Plus you get shitty treatment because people don't care..they want their $$$. Just a few weeks ago my 93 year old Great Grandmother, who was a Nurse with Kaiser, had to get new dentures. She is a widow, lives on Social Security and uses Medi-Cal/Denti-Cal. They sent her to a Dental School to get her dentures. The Students made the MOST awful teeth. They were HUGE and ill fitting. She ended up developing sores where the too large teeth were rubbing. The Denti-cal would not provide new teeth. So....she had to go several months without, until she could save up to replace them. Now that is a former healthcare worker....is that fair?

The whole thing disgusts me. I don't expect anything to be Free. But people in the most powerful country in the World are suffering because of Greed. Sure...Survival of the Fittest. Too bad many of the "Fittest" are rich ***holes who don't deserve it, who lie, cheat and steal to get to the top. While hard working Blue collar Americans can't make ends meet. Somehow...that doesn't seem right.


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## Andi (Sep 30, 2007)

Wow all of this makes me really sad. Celly, $300 for a shot??? That is beyond ridiculous. Here I could just go to the pharmacy and order the vaccine and ask a friend from med school to give me the shot.

Austrian healthcare is not free, you have to pay for insurance, but the costs are somewhat low. Insurance covers almost everything (and you only pay a small percent of the total cost) which includes surgeries, dental procedure, specialty doctor visits, psychotherapy etc. And genereal check ups once a year are even completely free!

Of course our health system has been struggling with its finances for years. Mostly cause people abused it by applying for weeklong stays at medical spas and other stuff they didnÂ´t really need. It was always paid for, which is ridiculous. Thank god that has changed now.

99% of the Austrian population is covered by health insurance. Everyone who canÂ´t afford to make the monthly payments is covered by the government.

As much as I love the US and still wish to live there one day, itÂ´s really really sad that some people who are sick and need treatment canÂ´t get it because they are afraid of the costs and the debt.

Health should not be a priviledge of the wealthy!


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## CellyCell (Oct 1, 2007)

I went to the Doctors last December for a cold I've had in over a month.

My cough was persistent and then I developed side pains that wouldn't go away.

I was so scared the bills were going to be insane for my mom so I really did not want to burden her and just bought a bunch of over the counter stuff until my side-pains developed. So we opted for a family doctor, finally.

Told me I was close to developing pneumonia because of my bronchitis and my side-pains were prolly kidney stones. Bah. So, seriously - I did not think about the pain... I thought about the bills. I don't know how much the visit ending up costing...

...my bronchitis went away in a few days and the pains subsided soon there after.

I just hate worrying about the bills before my health. How pathetic, huh?


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## BeneBaby (Oct 1, 2007)

Me too Celly. That's how I ended up in the Hospital. I went as long as I could without treatment...I ended getting way worse.


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## StereoXGirl (Oct 1, 2007)

I am certainly not anywhere near wealthy. No one in my family is. But my family has always had health insurance (even when my parents had to buy it themselves...not through their work).

Personally, I just don't see how people who can't afford doctor's visits are totally fine with paying higher taxes to pay for a "free" healthcare system.


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## emily_3383 (Oct 1, 2007)

Shelley repeated what this lady said on Oprah (lol), although some countries have free healthcare there is a long waiting list so that must suck too. Idk its what they said. lol


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## CellyCell (Oct 1, 2007)

How much are taken out of a check for taxes?

Me - about $30/$40 per check.

How much for visits to the doctor?

Hundreds/Thousands depends on what happens, what is given.

Personally, I rather have those what, $5 or more (obviously it's more depending on how much you make, but I don't make much) being taken out of my check if that means I get free healthcare. Then so be it. I rather pay that extra $5 bucks than oppose to $300 if I didn't.


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## KellyB (Oct 1, 2007)

Our healthcare is driven by big business in the name of drug and insurance companies. In our lifetimes, we won't see free healthcare. In order for the uninsured to get care, they DO have to compromise their care.....waiting for hours at health departments for basic care or having to use the ER for a dr.s office. The town I live in has one hospital. They are non profit and built a primary care clinic for the cities uninsured who were having to use the ER for their primary care. It was funded in part by the county and private donations. The county has backed out. Now these people are back to square one. The county says it costs too much. So who is responsible??? We have medicaid and medipass in Florida which is a Godsend to those who have it and they are usually the low income families or disabled folks. I make decent money but at my last job, to insure my daughter, it cost me almost $350 a month. It was difficult for me on my salary. So how about the CNA that made $11/hr with 3 kids to raise. How the hell was she supposed to do it. She didn't because she couldn't afford it. She, like so many others, used the Primary care clinic for her children that is now closing it's doors. I know someone has to be responsible for paying. If it's not the county, it's the state. If not the state, then the federal gvmt. But with the amount of waste our government has....no matter what level, you would think some of that money could be filtered to better programs for the groups of people I was referring to. It is ridiculous that we don't take better care of our citizens instead of spending billions of dollars sending 18 year olds overseas to fight a pointless war ( that's a different thread alltogether). I've seen it from both sides. As a health care provider and as a single parent making $5.50 an hr. I do not know what the answer is. I truly don't. What I know is that something has to change so that we all have access to the SAME care. You shouldn't have to compromise your health or end up in the hospital like Manders did when a script for Antibiotics could have prevented that just because you dont have the priviledge of wealth.


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## CellyCell (Oct 1, 2007)

Nicely said, Kelly! Seems like you got way more to say...


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## KellyB (Oct 1, 2007)

I do Celly. As a nurse, I care about your health. I take care of you, but the last 5 or 6 years, each job the amount of financial burden on me, as the nurse has exponentially increased. I'm so sick of it. Can't use the supplies I really need. Gotta use the crap stuff, cuz it's cheaper. Gotta watch the way I word things so the companies get reimbursed more. Don't even get me started on Medicare and their reimbursement regulations. The nursing notes that I write have EVERYTHING to do with reimbursement for the company. The bottom line is always financially related. I find very few companies that I have worked for where the patient is actually the top priority. I have a hospice patient that I see 3 or 4 days a week. That's not normal though. Medicare regulations say I only have to see these folks once every 14 days. It'll never happen with me. She is a complicated case and she lives alone but I spend as much time with her as I need to to keep her out of pain and to keep her anxiety level down. Now they tell me I'm spending too much time with her. WTF?????Yeah it takes away from productivity. I don't give a rats ass about productivity. You want me to case manage, let me manage. It's always about the money. It makes me want to get out of healthcare altogether. It's the patient that suffers in the end. Bahhhh! I gotta stop.


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## January (Oct 1, 2007)

I live in Canada, where we have public healthcare. I don't call it "free", because it's not. It depends on the province you live in, but you do have to pay a certain amount every month based on your income. In my province, most people with an average income pay about $33 every 4 months and you can go to the doctor whenever you want and it costs you nothing. To see the doctor, you can usually get a same day appt, if not that, then next day. To see a specialist, it's a longer wait (unless it's life threatening, then it's immediate). Our system isn't perfect, but I'm thankful to know if myself, or anyone in my family was to get very ill, or get in an accident, I wouldn't worry about the financial end of things as they got better. Plus, you don't put a price tag on your health, and if you're worried about something... you go get it checked. And you can always get second and third opinions.

Some people argue that with private healthcare, you get the best doctors since they get paid more. With public healthcare, doctors still make a nice amount of money, but most are in the profession to help people. No matter where you live, you're going to have good doctors, and not so good doctors, but it's up to you to pick a doctor you feel comfortable with that you feel does an ample job.

For my friends that live down there, I really hope the US gets a better system. Your level of healthcare shouldn't depend on how much money you make.

Edited to add: I seen the debate on Oprah. It really struck me when the doctor said she had to deny a man a life saving surgery since he couldn't afford it and she was commended for saving her company thousands and thousands of dollars. Is it more about saving lives or making money?


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## BeneBaby (Oct 1, 2007)

Kelly...everything you said if DEAD ON!! You are a saint for what you do. My little sister is a CNA and she works sooooo hard for next to nothing.

There has to be a better way.


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## StereoXGirl (Oct 1, 2007)

Originally Posted by *CellyCell* /img/forum/go_quote.gif How much are taken out of a check for taxes?Me - about $30/$40 per check.

How much for visits to the doctor?

Hundreds/Thousands depends on what happens, what is given.

Personally, I rather have those what, $5 or more (obviously it's more depending on how much you make, but I don't make much) being taken out of my check if that means I get free healthcare. Then so be it. I rather pay that extra $5 bucks than oppose to $300 if I didn't.

Saying an extra $5 opposed to $300 is misleading imo. I have gone to Dr.'s walk-in clinics twice while being in-between insurance, and both times were about $100 (one of those times I got a tetanus shot because my dog accidentally bit me). Assuming $5 is taken out of each paycheck and you get paid twice a month, that would be $120 taken out every year for "free" healthcare.
I just don't think free universal healthcare is the answer, imo.


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## BeneBaby (Oct 1, 2007)

When I had insurance through my job it was $30-$40 out per check....but it was also a $40 copay for visits. It was also out of pocket for prescriptions. It might also be more for procedures that aren't fully covered. Don't even get me started on how Birth Control isn't covered but Viagra is.


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## KellyB (Oct 1, 2007)

Originally Posted by *BeneBaby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif When I had insurance through my job it was $30-$40 out per check....but it was also a $40 copay for visits. It was also out of pocket for prescriptions. It might also be more for procedures that aren't fully covered. Don't even get me started on how Birth Control isn't covered but Viagra is. Amen, sister on the Viagra.


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## JennyMcL (Oct 1, 2007)

First, on Michael Moore--he's over the top no doubt, but I really believe what he does is very American and not a lot different than what a lot of people before him have done. He generates discussion about things Americans don't generally like to discuss. I'm not saying I agree with everything he says, but I like that it generates discourse.

As for healthcare in this country it is terrible. Insurance companies and drug companies make big bucks on it and everybody else suffers. I find it really funny when people argue against socialized medicine by saying "you don't want a government bureacrat controlling your healthcare." Well for most of us we have a bureaucrat from an HMO making these decisions for us anyway. My friend almost had to pay the full cost of her daughter's birth because she didn't think to call the insurance company when she went into labor and ask if it was OK to deliver. This country guarantees people the rights of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. I don't see how that responsibility is being met when such a large and growing segment of our population has to do without adequate healthcare.


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## CellyCell (Oct 1, 2007)

Ugh, disgusting.

I feel you, Kelly. I dunno how you're managing to stay sane, haha.

Maybe I am throwing around the word "free" loosely cuz obviously not many things here are - and at times it's hard to get my point across. But please, I rather hand down those $120 yearly if it means me, everyone else in my family and others who can't afford it to get to go to the doctors without worrying how much everything will cost _per_ visit (and I'm talking about common things like colds, check-ups, certain medications etc). $120 a year versus $300 _per_ visit... hell. And that $120 will guarantee that everyone else in the states is insured - every itty bitty person. Shouldn't everyone be allowed to have some _form_ insurance no matter their income? "Free" health care will greatly help those who don't have a penny to their name. Like they say, it's being treated as luxury...

I shouldn't be writing when I'm on a buzz, oi... my heads spinning.


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## -Liz- (Oct 1, 2007)

honnestly, im canadian, and we have "free" healthcare depending on where you are it's "Freeer" and i have family in ny who have been all kinds of sick and my aunt is a nurse...i would take ours over yours any day. when its important, you may have to wait longer, and yes some people cant wait and they either die (unfortunatly, im not trying to sound callus) or they dont. Just like people in the states die, or they dont. Its rediculus that one doesnt go see soemone and their condition worsens because they dont want to rack up the bills. What exactally is your country doing for you in this case? NOTHING. I'm not saying that our way is the best way, because everyone gets treated...including alcoholics who drink their way to liver disease and still get treated. but i know at least that when i got rushed to the hospital when i thought i was having a heart attack, the thought of the bills didnt finish me off. And the fortunate, can pay for faster and better doctors vs. the us where the fortunate get doctors, period. At least there is the other option. I may be 100% wrong, and i expect all kinds of canada bashing b.c there allready was, but i dont take offence, im just saying...maybe there may be a solution in half-half medicare. and i dont remember who said it, but doctors here, are GOOD doctors, they are such because they WANT to be, they want to help people. Like nurses everywhere, anyone in their right mind who think nurses are in it for the money are dead wrong. Its all about the nurses(sorry rant).


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## Andi (Oct 1, 2007)

Oh man, this is getting worse and worse. Kelly, ITA with every single word you said. I honestly donÂ´t wanna be in your shoes in your job as a hospice nurse!

Doctors here are not getting paid much either (well, less than in the US, thatÂ´s for sure), but since our health system is governement controlled they (and the nurses) donÂ´t have to worry about the costs of treating someone. Well yes, the only thing they have to "worry" about is prescribing some generics rather than the brand name medication, but not even in all the cases.

If itÂ´s proven that the more expensive med is better, then the patients gets it. If patients canÂ´t afford to get their prescriptions filled, the government pays for it all. Of course weÂ´re a small country and donÂ´t have a lot of the expenses the US has (um...war, thatÂ´s all IÂ´m saying), and yes our health system is in debt...but for some reason we still make it work.

No solution is perfect per se, but the peopleÂ´s well being should always be top priority. Anything else is not acceptable IMO!!!


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## pinksugar (Oct 1, 2007)

ours is getting worse... I guess I dont really know much about it but i do know that it sounds like the medical system in most countries is exploiting everyone - nurses being overworked and not paid enough, patients treated like they should be grateful customers... it's not a world I'd like to bring a child into


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## StereoXGirl (Oct 1, 2007)

Originally Posted by *CellyCell* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ugh, disgusting.I feel you, Kelly. I dunno how you're managing to stay sane, haha.

Maybe I am throwing around the word "free" loosely cuz obviously not many things here are - and at times it's hard to get my point across. But please, I rather hand down those $120 yearly if it means me, everyone else in my family and others who can't afford it to get to go to the doctors without worrying how much everything will cost _per_ visit (and I'm talking about common things like colds, check-ups, certain medications etc). $120 a year versus $300 _per_ visit... hell. And that $120 will guarantee that everyone else in the states is insured - every itty bitty person. Shouldn't everyone be allowed to have some _form_ insurance no matter their income? "Free" health care will greatly help those who don't have a penny to their name. Like they say, it's being treated as luxury...

I shouldn't be writing when I'm on a buzz, oi... my heads spinning.

I've gone years without having to go to the doctor. And, even when I did (and was between insurance), it was cheaper than the $120 that you would be paying a year. I'm just saying...
I could go on and on, but I'm not going to.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Like I said before, free univeral healthcare is not the answer, IMO.


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## bella1342 (Oct 1, 2007)

I don't know... I don't have insurance right now, but I can afford regular doctor's visits, prescriptions, etc.

Now, I can't really afford a 10k hospital stay like Mander's posted about but I can afford the basics.

My cousin, and a friend of my parents both told me about a type of coverage through blue cross/blue shield that is 90-some dollars a month. It is like a major medical coverage where you have to pay for all doctor's visits, prescriptions etc., but if you are hospitalized or emergency room visits are all covered. Having a baby is covered, and I think those doctor's appointments. My cousin even had a problem with her eye getting majorly infected and that was even covered. 90 some dollars a month. With all the makeup we buy, I think we could all afford this.

Now, if your are the type of person who has a lot of doctor's visits a year or need many prescriptions... this is not really for you... although I still think it is worth it, just for the emergeny room visits/ hospital stays. I think my cousin said Dr.'s visits cost a little less with a copay, but I'm not sure what it was. According to her and my parent's friends...it is great insurance for the cost.

For me it is perfect because I don't have many regular visits a year (except checkup).. I don't get sick a lot, but I am worried to have no insurance for hospital stays or emergency room visits. Anyways, I am in the process of getting enrolled with this insurance.

It might be worth looking for plans like this where y'all live. Maybe you'll find something close to it or better.

Oh on a side note, maybe I'm lucky but I'm on Nuva Ring, and my bc costs 60 dollars a month without insurance... When I go to the gyno, she knows this and stocks me up for almost a whole year. She is awesome.


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## CellyCell (Oct 1, 2007)

Originally Posted by *StereoXGirl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I've gone years without having to go to the doctor. And, even when I did (and was between insurance), it was cheaper than the $120 that you would be paying a year. I'm just saying...
I could go on and on, but I'm not going to.

We're just going to have to agree to disagree on this one. Like I said before, free univeral healthcare is not the answer, IMO.

Perhaps it was cheaper because of location?
I asked my mom about this and said if there were affordable insurance for me, of course she'll have it. Me and my dad are the only ones not insured.

My middle sister is the only one covered thru the state because of her epilepsy.


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## January (Oct 1, 2007)

I'm in Canada, so we have the "free" health care where we pay a certain amount every 4 months. I rarely go to the doctor, in fact, I probably haven't been in over a year, but I don't look at this as "wasting my money".

To me it's the "what if" (I don't like living my life by 'what if's' but this is kind of important!



). I like the security of knowing that if me, or anyone I cared about had been in an accident, or needed major surgery we wouldn't have to take out a loan, or sell our house just to get better, or in a worse case scenerio, save a life.


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## MindySue (Oct 1, 2007)

Im gonna say a situation that pretty much sums up american health care for the non wealthy people.

When I woke up at 3 am in excruitiating pain from what I didn't know then was kidney stones, I called my mom crying who was at work. she came home and woke my dad to take me to the doctors. Mind you I have never seen such pain, and I had no idea why..felt like something was terribly wrong. Well when we got there they not only made me wait till like 7 am just to do a scan..the bill was like 300..for telling me that I had a stone and that it might pass on its own?? Wtf.

Thats not even the point. The point that sums it up is, my dad was angry at me for going to the doctor. He kept talking negatively to me saying that I didnt have to go and that I love wasting his money. Wtf?? He was mad at me for it..for being extremely in pain..all because the healthcare is so rediculously high. If we were in canada or anywhere else with 'free' healthcare he wouldnt have been upset with me. They didn't do shit for me, either. It cost hundreds for my dad even with insurance (not sure how it all works but not everything is covered)

Basically dad got pissed at me for me having to go to the doctors. great health care huh?

Oh and i've had to get a few more scans done since then, along with a 24 urine collection to see if my diet was doing it to me. That brought it up to about a thousand for all the bills that really didnt do anything for me.


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## CellyCell (Oct 1, 2007)

You got me worrying if I have my Kidney stones still, thanks Mins...

...bah, I just want damn coverage.


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## MindySue (Oct 1, 2007)

:/

canada, baby


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## StereoXGirl (Oct 1, 2007)

Originally Posted by *MindySue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Im gonna say a situation that pretty much sums up american health care for the non wealthy people.
When I woke up at 3 am in excruitiating pain from what I didn't know then was kidney stones, I called my mom crying who was at work. she came home and woke my dad to take me to the doctors. Mind you I have never seen such pain, and I had no idea why..felt like something was terribly wrong. Well when we got there they not only made me wait till like 7 am just to do a scan..the bill was like 300..for telling me that I had a stone and that it might pass on its own?? Wtf.

Thats not even the point. The point that sums it up is, my dad was angry at me for going to the doctor. He kept talking negatively to me saying that I didnt have to go and that I love wasting his money. Wtf?? He was mad at me for it..for being extremely in pain..all because the healthcare is so rediculously high. If we were in canada or anywhere else with 'free' healthcare he wouldnt have been upset with me. They didn't do shit for me, either. It cost hundreds for my dad even with insurance (not sure how it all works but not everything is covered)

Basically dad got pissed at me for me having to go to the doctors. great health care huh?

Oh and i've had to get a few more scans done since then, along with a 24 urine collection to see if my diet was doing it to me. That brought it up to about a thousand for all the bills that really didnt do anything for me.

I love you, Mindy, and I'm sorry that happened to you. 
But I don't think your situation "pretty much sums up american health care for the non wealthy people."

Also, with free healthcare, you probably wouldn't have been able to see a doctor until the stones had passed anyway.


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## MindySue (Oct 1, 2007)

Well I think it does, maybe not to everyone..but the general gist is people hate to pay for their healthcare bills. Nobody likes that.


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## StereoXGirl (Oct 1, 2007)

Originally Posted by *MindySue* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well I think it does, maybe not to everyone..but the general gist is people hate to pay for their healthcare bills. Nobody likes that. Ok, I can agree to that! lol.


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## Andi (Oct 1, 2007)

I wonder why in some countries with "free" healthcare people (from what I have read about Canada..just in some areas I guess?) have to wait for hours to see a doctor, and here in Austria this works just fine. You walk into an ER and get examined. And the waiting lists for family doctors or specialty doctors arenÂ´t long either. If I had an issue thatÂ´s an emergency, I could get an appointment with (for example) my gynaecologist the very same day...or just walk into the gynaecology ER.

Nobody whoÂ´s in pain has to sit in the waiting room for hours. ThatÂ´s wrong on so many levels and even if you canÂ´t do anything about it as a citizen, I would find that VERY hard to just deal with. I would probably go ballistic and start screaming until a doc examines me. lol

Also I donÂ´t understand how people can say itÂ´s ok not to have "free" healthcare and only pay for doctorÂ´s bills whenever itÂ´s absolutely necessary to see a doctor. IÂ´d be scared of the "what if"-situations. You can always get in an accident and whatnot, and I donÂ´t even wanna imagine how much $ it would cost to be hospitalized for weeks at a time.

Also think about people with chronic illnesses...who knows at one point any one of us could develop an illness that requires frequent visits to doctors and prescriptions.

I can go see a doctor here if I have bruised my knee, a minor cold, back pain-whatever. There are no long waiting lists, and insurance covers almost everything. From a patients point of view, our health system is perfect (although the government will disagree of course cause it costs them a lot of money!)


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## bella1342 (Oct 1, 2007)

Originally Posted by *Andi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Also I donÂ´t understand how people can say itÂ´s ok not to have "free" healthcare and only pay for doctorÂ´s bills whenever itÂ´s absolutely necessary to see a doctor. IÂ´d be scared of the "what if"-situations. You can always get in an accident and whatnot, and I donÂ´t even wanna imagine how much $ it would cost to be hospitalized for weeks at a time. Also think about people with chronic illnesses...who knows at one point any one of us could develop an illness that requires frequent visits to doctors and prescriptions.

I know what you mean... I am afraid of the what ifs.. that is why I looked into that insurance plan where God forbid I am in an accident or have emergency hospital visits... it will all be covered. I only need this plan for a year, until I have insurance through my teaching job.
We had my 18 month old son in the emergency room two months ago for a croup cough that he was wheezing so bad he couldn't breath. We waited 4 hours in the waiting room until they looked at him. I flipped out. Their response was we handle things on a first come first serve basis. F%&amp;K that! Your telling me someone who sprained their ankle deserves to be examined before a baby who could barely breath. My son has great insurance too. Doesn't matter, and doesn't make sense. That is what I mostly don't like about our healthcare system... other than that it's not that bad. IDK..


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## BeneBaby (Oct 1, 2007)

Everyone had valid points. ITA with January when the "what if" factor was mentioned. That is the scariest thing. God Forbid I was to get a disease or be in an accident, I would never be able to pay off my Medical Debt.

As for Blue Cross..I have looked into the $90 plan. The co pays are $40, plus whatever portion of the meds you mave to pay. It is ideal for someone who rarely has doctor visits, but not for me. Yes...I could not buy makeup and afford that. But I still get the BARE minimum of care.


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## bella1342 (Oct 1, 2007)

Originally Posted by *BeneBaby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif As for Blue Cross..I have looked into the $90 plan. The co pays are $40, plus whatever portion of the meds you mave to pay. It is ideal for someone who rarely has doctor visits, but not for me. Yes...I could not buy makeup and afford that. But I still get the BARE minimum of care.

Yep, it is decent... but not for everyone. I ::knocks on wood:: rarely get sick where I need drs. visits. I know I will never stop buying clothes or makeup though... even if I had no insurance. I'm bad... lol! 
It's just a scary, scary thing.


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## Andi (Oct 1, 2007)

thinking of it..my brother suffered from leukaemia and was in the hospital for an entire year (of course there were breaks where he could go home, but only when his blood parameters would allow him to leave the hospital. And the at home stays were only like 2 weeks max!). He is covered by my parents (so am I cause IÂ´m still in college) so there were no financial worries. We all know how expensive chemo is, and on top of that MRTs, special additional treatments, etc. For an entire year!

And he was treated at a university clinic, because our local hospital is not specialized on leukaemia treatment. So only the best doctors cared for him. He was 16 back then, so my mom took a year off work (sheÂ´s a teacher and they can take up to a year off to care of sick relatives etc, and still get paid!) and stayed with him because the hospital is 2 hours away from our house.

Of course we see those things for granted because weÂ´ve always had that kinda system. And yes our monthly insurance payments keep rising, but people can still afford it. Whenever I hear people complaining about how expensive it is I just shake my head...just look at other countries and you should be greatful to have our system.


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## JennyMcL (Oct 1, 2007)

_2 February 2005_

*Half Of All Bankruptcies Caused By Medical Bills*

New research in the journal Health Affairs indicates that medical problems contributed to half of all bankruptcies in the U.S., involving 700,000 households. About 700,000 children lived in families that declared bankruptcy in the aftermath of serious medical problems. Another 600,000 spouses, elderly parents and other dependents brought the total number of people directly affected by medical bankruptcies to more than 2,000,000 annually.

Surprisingly, over 75 percent of those bankrupted by medical problems were insured at the start of the bankrupting illness. Among those with private insurance, however, one-third had lost coverage - usually due to job loss - at least temporarily by the time they filed for bankruptcy. Out-of-pocket medical costs (for uncovered services) averaged $13,460 for those with private insurance at the onset of their illness, vs. $10,893 for the uninsured. The highest costs - averaging $18,005 - were incurred by those who initially had private coverage but lost it in the course of their illness. Many families were bankrupted by medical expenses well below the catastrophic thresholds of high deductible plans that are increasingly popular with employers.

The research, carried out jointly by researchers at Harvard Law School and Harvard Medical School, is the first in-depth study of medical causes of bankruptcy. With the cooperation of bankruptcy judges they administered questionnaires to nearly 2,000 bankruptcy filers and reviewed their court records. "Our study is frightening. Unless you're Bill Gates, you're just one serious illness away from bankruptcy. Most of the medically bankrupt were average Americans who happened to get sick. Health insurance offered little protection. Families with coverage faced unaffordable co-payments, deductibles and bills for uncovered items like physical therapy, psychiatric care and prescription drugs. And even the best job-based health insurance often vanished when prolonged illness caused job loss - precisely when families needed it most. Too often, private health insurance is an umbrella that melts in the rain," said David Himmelstein, lead author of the study. (The authors of the study note that even their own coverage from Harvard leaves them at risk for out-of-pocket costs above levels that often led to medical bankruptcy.)

"When medical debts and lost income from illnesses leave families facing a mountain of bills, bankruptcy is their last chance to stop the collection calls and try to put their lives back on track," noted Elizabeth Warren, a study co-author at Harvard. "Bankruptcy costs these families substantial assets and deep personal shame. A person may recover physically from a medical problem, but millions of Americans will never recover financially from their encounters with the health care system."


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## Nox (Oct 1, 2007)

I have been watching the development of this thread. I have to say how profoundly _disappointed_ I am that some folks could not illustrate their point without resorting to political propaganda. Forget about Michael Moore, he does _not_ represent the average American in any case, that is not even a good excuse anyway. I was _really looking forward_ to seeing some well constructed arguments against "free" or subsidized health care. That's when the argument actually starts to get good. Can anyone else bring it? I'm gonna try...

__________________________________________________ _________________



*PRO Subsidized Health Care Short Argument:*

Everybody, from the indigent to the very wealthy, would have at least the very basic of services. Historically, the very poor tend to live in areas that are isolated away from very advanced medical centers, and the subsidy would provide an incentive for them to actually go and seek treatment, whatever the transportation inconvenience.

Bankruptcy would predictably fall since the biggest chunk of bankruptcies filed in the U.S. are health related. Families can elect to spend their money on other essentials besides covering co-payments, premiums, and non-covered services.

Working adults with pre-existing health conditions will not have to deal health insurance transfer dilemmas. Those who have had cancer, have hepatitis or HIV will not be able to be approved for another health insurance provider if they do not have COBRA from a previous employer. Subsidized health may address this issue and circumnavigate this sticky problem.



*CON Subsidized Health Care Short Argument:*

Subsidized Health Care will put a heavy toll on our already imperfect system. It may even bankrupt the United States. The application of the health care is in serious trouble before it gets off the ground because of the disproportionate amount of baby boomers vs. the rest of the working adult population.

Doctors here in the U.S. must obey the Hippocratic Oath taken when they put on their lab coats. They must treat everyone that walks in the door, regardless of it they are legal residents of the United States or not. Illegally residing individuals and their children can and will take advantage of any medical system that we put in place, and we have no way to safe-guard against that effectively.

Our health care system already has enough complaints of "back logs" as it is. It will definitely not get better with "free" or subsidized Universal health care. The government has shown time and again how it is not the best manager of systems, especially those having to do with the private lives of citizens. The UK is definitely not the very worst in the world, but as far as developed nations, if I had a toothache, or appendicitis, I would much rather be here in the US a thousand times over, than to be in a pickle over there in th UK. I don't like waiting longer than necessary for basic services.


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## KellyB (Oct 2, 2007)

Points well taken Nox. I'm not up for a debate tonight but I felt compelled to give some sort of an answer. This is only a fraction of my reasoning but it will take some page space to explain, so one point at a time for me.

I do not want this government controlling every aspect of my healthcare. I deal with US gvmt health regulations daily with Medicare. They make no sense and generally do nothing to encourage good care. Take for instance a patient who gets home health care for a wound that wouldn't heal. Say this patient is 80 yrs old and has arthritis and their wound is on their ankle. They need daily wound care. A: do you send them to the Dr's office daily. They don't drive so they have to take a taxi, catch a bus or hope their neighbor can give them a ride or B: send a nurse out daily to change the dressing until it's healed. The answer is neither. Reimbursement for home care is all inclusive regardless of how often a patient is seen. For now, companies are given lump sums after "x" number of days based on the diagnosis. So the company that pays the nurse doesn't want that nurse out there daily. They have to pay the nurse for those daily visits, but they are reimbursed the same amount of money whether the nurse is there weekly or daily. So..........they want you to teach an 80 year old with arthritic hands and a wound on her ankle, how to change her own dressings. Now this particular method of reimbursement was necessary b/c Home care companies used to get paid on a per visit basis. Of course they would send a nurse out daily then. They made more money that way. Who is to blame.......both. Now someone is getting a "little" smarter in DC. The reimbursement is changing to outcome based. Pt doesn't get better........no pay for the company....and eventually Dr's will get paid by Medicare using this method also. The upside is that it encourages the best care. The downside is that there will always be patients who despite your best efforts will not improve. non-compliant patients, brittle diabetics and such. It won't matter. If there is no improvement than there will be no reimbursement for the companies providing care. So the pt doesn't improve for whatever reason and the company gets no money for all the money they fronted for the patients care including supplies and manhours. Companies will hike prices on other services to try to offset the amount of money they will lose on those patients. right now that's just a vicious circle to me. No money+no personnel= no home care for those who really need it. Now if I had a solution, I would give it, but someone is always going to lose and you can bet that it's going to be the pt that suffers the most.

Now the flipside is that private insurance is no better. You have to beg to get what you need for the patient and all insurance companies have a cap on how many home visits you can have per year. When you run out of days...too bad for you.

Watching people struggle daily with how to pay for medications and services is disheartening to say the least. At least with Hospice, although there are a thousand medicare regulations there also, I don't have to justify every single thing that I need. If a medication is related to their "hospice diagnosis, it's covered. But if I have a fairly high functioning hospice patient who has a dx of cancer but they are also diabetic, they are still responsible for all of their insulin, test strips, etc.

I am dealing with this crap on a DAILY basis. While the concept of universal healthcare appeals to me, I don't want my government instituting it. They have not shown me that they can even handle one natural disaster (Katrina). I'm not so sure I want my well being placed in their hands. I wonder if there will even be money in Social Security when I'm ready to retire in 20 years. I'm positive there won't be for you at the rate we are going. When my government shows me, at a minimum, that they can balance a budget I might let them into my medicine cabinet. Ok.that's point #1...........


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## January (Oct 2, 2007)

I read some mentions of the waiting lists in Canada. Yeah, that's true... BUT, if it's life threatening, or even _possibly_ life threatening, you move to the front of the list, always.




So the priority with this system, is a persons health, not their wallet.

And like I said before, almost anytime I want to see a doctor, I get a same day appointment. Sometimes next day. Unless it's urgent of course. The only time I've ever heard of an extended wait is for things that are not time sensitive.


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## CellyCell (Oct 2, 2007)

Originally Posted by *BeneBaby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Everyone had valid points. ITA with January when the "what if" factor was mentioned. That is the scariest thing. God Forbid I was to get a disease or be in an accident, I would never be able to pay off my Medical Debt.
As for Blue Cross..I have looked into the $90 plan. The co pays are $40, plus whatever portion of the meds you mave to pay. It is ideal for someone who rarely has doctor visits, but not for me. Yes...I could not buy makeup and afford that. But I still get the BARE minimum of care.

Yep ditto, that's me and all my damn medical problems. I just don't want to burden my parents with medical bills when a "what if" happens.

If I lived alone - no doubt will I be in debt because I pay for college and books (was rejected from financial aid for some reason), I pay for my own transportation daily and other misc. bills. Bah. Being a college student blows...

Mindy, I'm so there... tell Phil's bro a like silver/white gold as my wedding band - thanks.


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## Saje (Oct 2, 2007)

I am with a lot of you on the "what if" situation and that is what is scary to me. (Heck even if its something simple like getting appendicitis - which I did have - who can predict that?)

Sure I (or my mom or whatever) can afford to pay for myself right now if I got a cold or fever (thank god!) but the fact that I am not covered by insurance because I am over a certain age is scary and insane - god forbid I get another bad case of UTI or something - what would I do then?


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## Karen_B (Oct 2, 2007)

I don't know very much about the US healthcare system, but I do feel that proper healthcare when you are sick is a basic human right. The quality of the care you recieve should not depend on your bank balance. I also feel the ethics of making money on other people's misery (in the form of disease) can be discussed.

I live in a country with free (or socialized?) healthcare. I've been very lucky the few times I've had to seek medical care. When I had appendicitis I didn't have to wait very long in the ER, and I got a bed, a night nurse, several nurse's aids, an anasthesiologist, an anasthesia nurse, several OR nurses, 2 surgeons, 3 shots of morphine, anasthesia, post operative pain killers, post operative care, breakfast, lunch and dinner, all for the very facile price of 25 bucks. Everyone was super nice and super competent.

However, there are long waits for less acute surgeries here. If you need the ER for something that isn't acutely life threatening, you will often need to wait a long time - because the patients who have severe pain, life threatening disorders etc are prioritized. Part of that is also because people go to the ER for antibiotics and the like, when they should make an appointment with their local physician, so the queue (SP?) gets long at the ER. Getting an appt with your local dr usually doesn't take that long, either.

The psychiatric care and the care for people with drug dependence is not working very well either. These are low status health care areas, used by people who are considered low status and who aren't good at speaking up for themselves. However, my husband who has suffered severe depression for some time now has recieved quite good care.

I do not think that dr's here are less inclined to do their job well because they don't make heaps of money compared to other countries. Firstly, an MD does make a lot of money here, especially a specialist. Secondly, I don't think people in general will be sloppy with other people's well being and health just because they don't get a million bucks for it. Frankly, I'm a bit insulted that this is even suggested. If all you see is dollar signs when you look at a sick person, you should not be in that line of work (and probably need a psych evaluation as well).

I don't know which system is best, private or government. Private healthcare is great for the people who can access it, I'm sure. It's terrible to have to wait for 6 months for an operation, as is the case here with socialized healthcare. But then again, is it better to NEVER have the operation, because you can't afford it?


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## Nox (Oct 2, 2007)

Originally Posted by *Karen_B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I do not think that dr's here are less inclined to do their job well because they don't make heaps of money compared to other countries. Firstly, an MD does make a lot of money here, especially a specialist. Secondly, I don't think people in general will be sloppy with other people's well being and health just because they don't get a million bucks for it. Frankly, I'm a bit insulted that this is even suggested. *If all you see is dollar signs when you look at a sick person, you should not be in that line of work (and probably need a psych evaluation as well). *

LMAO. That part was too true!


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## reesesilverstar (Oct 2, 2007)

Kelly summed up my sentiment...

Originally Posted by *Karen_B* /img/forum/go_quote.gif If all you see is dollar signs when you look at a sick person, you should not be in that line of work (and probably need a psych evaluation as well). 
Let me be honest here and say I know ppl who became doctors not because they have a genuine care for human life. But because it offered them a certain lifestyle, economic bracket and social status, that they want.


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## Kathy (Oct 2, 2007)

Originally Posted by *BeneBaby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Why doesn't it suck?? Sure we have the best Doctors the most advanced treatment...blah blah. But what good does it do if a majority of our citizens cannot afford it???? It's like having a Luxury Hotel in the Ghetto. It looks nice, too bad nobody stays in it and it's a waste. 
Sure we have some programs like Medi-Cal. But Medi-Cal barely covers the minimum. Plus you get shitty treatment because people don't care..they want their $$$. Just a few weeks ago my 93 year old Great Grandmother, who was a Nurse with Kaiser, had to get new dentures. She is a widow, lives on Social Security and uses Medi-Cal/Denti-Cal. They sent her to a Dental School to get her dentures. The Students made the MOST awful teeth. They were HUGE and ill fitting. She ended up developing sores where the too large teeth were rubbing. The Denti-cal would not provide new teeth. So....she had to go several months without, until she could save up to replace them. Now that is a former healthcare worker....is that fair?

The whole thing disgusts me. I don't expect anything to be Free. But people in the most powerful country in the World are suffering because of Greed. Sure...Survival of the Fittest. Too bad many of the "Fittest" are rich ***holes who don't deserve it, who lie, cheat and steal to get to the top. While hard working Blue collar Americans can't make ends meet. Somehow...that doesn't seem right.

YAH Manders!!! I agree with you 100%!!!! Our government doesn't even want to fund SCHIP, which is a Child's Health Insurance Program. 7-9 million kids in the US have no coverage and according to our current administration it should stay that way!! WTF????!!


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## Dragonfly (Oct 2, 2007)

Just wanted to add a few things about Canada's health care.

As pointed out already, some provinces are "freer" than others.

Just a few things that are not covered in Ontario's health program:

Standard eye appointments for those 18 years of age to 65.

Certain gynelogical procedures I believe.

Some chemo medications.

When I served in the military - the cost of any self inflicted injuries were paid by the member.

Unless you have dental insurance, all expences are out of pocket.

Canadian's pay a lot of money toward taxes. These tax dollars go to the Ministries of Health. The Ministers determine what will be covered and what is out of pocket.

In Ontario we have the Trillium Plan - according to one's income they may get assistance with paying for medication.

Last year, Ontarion's started paying for their provincial health care though their income tax. Depending on your income, you may pay nothing, a few dollars or perhaps 100 per month.

We have a shortage of doctors - at least 15,000 people are without a family doctor in my town.

Emergency rooms and walk in clinics are an easy 3 hour wait.

Emergency surgery will bump elective surgery.

I had a hysterectomy 2 years ago - I was put on a list in April and finally had the surgery in October. If it had been an emergency, I would have had no wait time.

This is a great thread - very educational.


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## JennyMcL (Oct 2, 2007)

There are two other things to consider:

1. In the current system employers pay for their employee's health care. That means that American goods have yet another cost added onto them.

2. We love to brag that America has the best doctors, the best medicine, etc. However, if you look at most of the standards for healthcare, we're not doing so well. Our infant mortality rate is 6.4--that's worse than Australia, Austria, Canada, The Czech Republic Denmark, Finland, France, Germany, Greece, Ireland, Italy, Japan, South Korea, New Zeland, Norway, Portugal, Spain, Sweden, Switzerland, and The UK. Our life expectancy is behind most of the exact same countries that have socialized medicine

3. We foolishly believe that this is an either or kind of arguement. I believe that as Americans we should be trying to find the best possible health care system. Its possible that Canada doesn't have it, but I can guarantee we don't have it either.


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## xEdenx (Oct 3, 2007)

Canada has free healthcare so up to this point in time i haven't really had a problem.


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## Jacky Lucent (Oct 3, 2007)

The question of health care in this country and its disparity among its citizens I think goes to a question of morality. I'm afraid this country doesn't get high marks.


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## Karen_B (Oct 3, 2007)

Originally Posted by *reesesilverstar* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Kelly summed up my sentiment...


Let me be honest here and say I know ppl who became doctors not because they have a genuine care for human life. But because it offered them a certain lifestyle, economic bracket and social status, that they want.

I know a lot of people want to be dr's for that reason - Sweden certainly is no different. But I still think it is highly unlikely that doctors look at a sick person and decide that no, I'm not going to do my best here, because I only make six or seven thousand dollars a month.


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## empericalbeauty (Oct 3, 2007)

So i just watched an Oprah segment dedicated to health care and Michael Moore's documentary. I don't know what to say because frankly, I was never really bothered with it. Back home the way things work, in respect to health care, is very very different from the American system. However, I will say that a lady, in Oprah's audience, brought up a very valid point that soldiers, who are willing to die for this land, aren't being given the health care they deserve. their families are also in the same boat.


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## BeneBaby (Oct 3, 2007)

Originally Posted by *empericalbeauty* /img/forum/go_quote.gif So i just watched an Oprah segment dedicated to health care and Michael Moore's documentary. I don't know what to say because frankly, I was never really bothered with it. Back home the way things work, in respect to health care, is very very different from the American system. However, I will say that a lady, in Oprah's audience, brought up a very valid point that soldiers, who are willing to die for this land, aren't being given the health care they deserve. their families are also in the same boat. Yep Grace that is true. My Ex was a Veteran and going to the Veterans Hospital was a JOKE. All they do is prescribe pain pills. You have to wait many hours and many weeks to get appts. There is only one Hospital in the entire Bay Area for Vets. My Ex was injured when he jumped from a plane and needed a surgery on his back. They kept giving him reasons why they didn't want to do it. All invalid reasons. I used to sit in the waiting room and watch Vets sell their pain pills...


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## Nox (Oct 3, 2007)

Originally Posted by *empericalbeauty* /img/forum/go_quote.gif However, I will say that a lady, in Oprah's audience, brought up a very valid point that soldiers, who are willing to die for this land, aren't being given the health care they deserve. their families are also in the same boat. And that is crying shame.




Sometimes it really is an embarrassment to the rest of the world, when the most powerful country cannot even give all their soldiers proper protective gear, so when they get injured they are sometimes sent to dilapidated moldy hospitals. In war times like this, they should be given the very best of services and care, not the bottom of the barrel. Our boys (and gals) need and deserve more than that.


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## KellyB (Oct 3, 2007)

Originally Posted by *Nox* /img/forum/go_quote.gif And that is crying shame.



Sometimes it really is an embarrassment to the rest of the world, when the most powerful country cannot even give all their soldiers proper protective gear, so when they get injured they are sometimes sent to dilapidated moldy hospitals. In war times like this, they should be given the very best of services and care, not the bottom of the barrel. Our boys (and gals) need and deserve more than that. Yes. and I don't even want to think about what will happen to my son-in law in 5 weeks. It scares me. Really scares me.....that he will get hurt and not have what he needs. He asked us to send tampons. Apparently they use them to pack wounds. I can't explain how upset I am about this.


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## emily_3383 (Oct 3, 2007)

Originally Posted by *BeneBaby* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Yep Grace that is true. My Ex was a Veteran and going to the Veterans Hospital was a JOKE. All they do is prescribe pain pills. You have to wait many hours and many weeks to get appts. There is only one Hospital in the entire Bay Area for Vets. My Ex was injured when he jumped from a plane and needed a surgery on his back. They kept giving him reasons why they didn't want to do it. All invalid reasons. I used to sit in the waiting room and watch Vets sell their pain pills... Your are right about the VA hospital. My aunt and uncle are veterans and all they have is pills.


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