# Shampoo VS Conditioner



## HairEgo (May 7, 2009)

Most people I come across always have the mindset that the shampoo that they use isnt important; that it is the conditioner that really matters. So that got me thinking...Does everyone feel that way? YOU decide after reading below...

Shampoo as we all know, is meant to cleanse the hair. It removes dirt, oil, and product build up on the hair and scalp. So all shampoo's are the same then right? Wrong. Lesser expensive shampoo's use lower quality ingredients, the main one being the foaming agent. They often cleanse the hair so much that you actually strip your hair and scalp of its natural oils thus causing unnecessary dryness. The proper shampoo is key to healthy hair.

Conditioners seal the hair cuticle, helping it lay flat. They can give the hair a shot of either protein or moisture, helping to improve the general condition of the hair. They also make the hair more managable and easier to style.

So, now I ask...in your opinion, is shampoo just as important as conditioner? Why or why not...


----------



## Aprill (May 7, 2009)

I dont know where the notion came from that you could slap conditioner in your hair and says its washed came from. I believe in shampoo+conditioner. Shampoo is important to relieve the hair from buildup, and I believe that the poo haters were using cheap shampoo which did make the hair worse, not better. But I let people do them, but I do shampoo and conditioner


----------



## Ozee (May 7, 2009)

i think the 2 are equally as important.


----------



## Adrienne (May 7, 2009)

I can't do one or without the other. It has to be both. I have oily hair to I have to wash it every other day. When I don't work, I don't wash it but mainly bc I hate how it feels the first day it's washed and I don't go anywhere special and it's easier to hold up when its dirty lol. If I don't use conditioner, like last night for the first time in years bc I ran out, my hair feels horrible when I try to air dry it. I always air dry it and you could see and feel the difference; i hated it. Like when I use Zest after using a heavily moisturing soap for awhile, all tight and dry.


----------



## Dragonfly (May 8, 2009)

I think they are both equally important.

But I have to disagree with you Gina - I don't think spending more gets you a better quality product.


----------



## Darla (May 8, 2009)

just tell me what to buy that is a good value


----------



## Dragonfly (May 8, 2009)

Got2b and Garnier Fructis are great styling products

Coconut oil is fabulous - apply before shampooing. Helps strengthen and condition.

I use a White Rain/Tame shampoo.

And I believe that Pantene make great conditioners.


----------



## HairEgo (May 8, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think they are both equally important.But I have to disagree with you Gina - I don't think spending more gets you a better quality product.

If you use a lower end product (say..shampoo) on one side of your head and then use a higher end shampoo on the other side...I'm absolutely positive that after 2 weeks of doing this, your opinion would be different.


----------



## Aprill (May 8, 2009)

I agree, cheap shampoos (with an exception to everpure or whatever its name is) Is full of sulfates and stuff to make bubbles, making you think that your hair is clean. You have a better change of getting less damaged hair using laundry detergent. And Pantene conditioners I have found to be full of perfume!


----------



## HairEgo (May 8, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Aprill* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree, cheap shampoos (with an exception to everpure or whatever its name is) Is full of sulfates and stuff to make bubbles, making you think that your hair is clean. You have a better change of getting less damaged hair using laundry detergent. And Pantene conditioners I have found to be full of perfume! LOL I've been known to use cheap shampoo's from time to time as laundry detergent......cheaper conditioners are full of waxes which coat the hair making it feel healthier, but in reality you're just causing a large buildup of wax


----------



## Bec688 (May 8, 2009)

Shampoo is definately just as important as the conditioner. I use good quality salon shampoo and conditioner and I can definately tell the difference between those and cheaper brands, though I must admit, I have used cheaper brands that I have been just as impressed with.


----------



## Orangeeyecrayon (May 8, 2009)

i am proboably one of the few people who think the shampoo is more important than the conditioner.

i tend to buy salon quality products for my shampoo and than whatever is on sale at the drug store for my conditioner


----------



## esha (May 8, 2009)

I think both are equally important. Because then you're just half-as*'ing the job.

Would you buy amazing paint, but terrible paint brushes? No - you don't get the same effect if you were using the best of both worlds.

So yes, Gina I agree about the 'you get what you pay for'.


----------



## McRubel (May 8, 2009)

I've always been willing to shell out extra bucks for a good conditioner. I have thick, course hair that tangles easily and using a cheapo conditioner just aint gonna cut it! I would pair it with a basic drugstore shampoo for the longest time. Well, Ulta had a sale so I decided to get a salon shampoo. WOW! All that scalp itching I was having went away. Plus the buildup I had disappeared! Now I'm sold.


----------



## Annelle (May 8, 2009)

I think I tend to get the same brand of shampoo as I do conditioner. I know that you generally want a conditioner that works with your shampoo, so I figure they'd make the most compatible combinations.

I switch up brands, but I definitely notice a difference in certain brands that i now avoid. (some shampoos make my hair feel -- not silky. like...almost rough or horsehair-like or like matted doghair-like...and then the conditioner doesn't make it feel insta-silky back again. better shampoos make my hair still feel like human hair, but wet...like if you were swimming. and then the conditioner makes it feel silky smooth)

Shampoo cleans my hair -- if it's been a while since my hair has been washed, it starts feeling dingy and oily. Shampoo gets this out and feeling clean. Conditioner makes it so my hair feels silky so I can run my fingers through it without yanking my hair out. You need do to both, imho. I don't think I could ever go without both, unless I was on a trip and all I had was shampoo though. (just doing conditioner would make me feel like my hair was still dirty and I had lotioned it or something, I dunno. I've never done that before)


----------



## emily_3383 (May 8, 2009)

I change it up all the time so basically it doesnt matter...


----------



## reesesilverstar (May 8, 2009)

LOL @ Darla!!!

Yea, the no poo thing, I tried... Doesn't work on locs... I'm gonna stick to my poo + condish.


----------



## magosienne (May 8, 2009)

Both are equally important for me.vShampoo is important, i have fine hair so every problem like grease on the roots, dryness on the lengths and split ends are only more visible on my hair. For that reason, i read labels, and i don't care if better quality means throwing a few more euros, i remember the disaster cheap supermarket shampoos have done.

As for conditioners, my quest relies in finding a good moisturising conditioner that won't flatten my hair. Considering i rarely use one, one bottle lasts me months so i don't really care about the price either, it's an investment.


----------



## Noir Sakura (May 9, 2009)

I think conditioner is way more important. There's a reason why it's instructions can vary while 90% of all shampoos all have the instructions "apply, rinse, and if needed, repeat". Depending on the ingredients, a conditioner can strengthen or moisturize your hair, or if it's really good, both.

I also think people need to get off labels and into information. There is a big difference between a surfactant (which is the shampoo ingredient that cleanses the hair), a sulfate (which is a type of surfactant), and foaming agents (which actually don't have the ability to clean but give you the emotional feeling that it does). A large amount of money also does not mean you get a better quality product. It's the ingredients that matter. If SLS/SLES shampoos don't work for you, it doesn't matter if you spend 50 cent or 50 dollars, your hair will suffer because it's not the right shampoo for you.

Originally Posted by *HairEgo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif LOL I've been known to use cheap shampoo's from time to time as laundry detergent......cheaper conditioners are full of waxes which coat the hair making it feel healthier, but in reality you're just causing a large buildup of wax Can you give an example of what you consider a "cheap" conditioner and provide an ingredient list and show where wax is listed? Because I've tried a wide range of conditioners at various prices and I have yet to see one that had 'wax' anywhere on the ingredient list.


----------



## HairEgo (May 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Noir Sakura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I also think people need to get off labels and into information. There is a big difference between a surfactant (which is the shampoo ingredient that cleanses the hair), a sulfate (which is a type of surfactant), and foaming agents (which actually don't have the ability to clean but give you the emotional feeling that it does). *A large amount of money also does not mean you get a better quality product. It's the ingredients that matter*. If SLS/SLES shampoos don't work for you, it doesn't matter if you spend 50 cent or 50 dollars, your hair will suffer because it's not the right shampoo for you.


*Can you give an example of what you consider a "cheap" conditioner and provide an ingredient list and show where wax is listed? Because I've tried a wide range of conditioners at various prices and I have yet to see one that had 'wax' anywhere on the ingredient list*.

To the first bolded comment - you are contridicting yourself. A more expensive shampoo has higher end ingredients. 
To the second bolded comment - I sure could supply you and anyone else who wanted to know ingredient and chemical compound lists, however....product education is something I get PAID to do, and even though i'm generally more then happy to answer any hair related questions as many users will atest too, i'm not particularily willing to jeprodize my career by posting brand testing info.

You are entitled to your opinion, just as everyone else on the forum is. I'm not here to make everyone agree with me...i'm here cause hair is my passion


----------



## Ricci (May 9, 2009)

Ever since I stopped using drugstore and supermarket shampoos &amp; conditioner 12 yrs ago my hair grows like crazy and its much better health I agree with HairEgo!


----------



## TwinkletOes26 (May 9, 2009)

I have read that conditoner is wayyyy more important i for get where it was a hair book i saw at books a million. They said all shampoo is the same basic ingredients(now mind you i read this book in the 90s so maybe things have changed) and conditoner is most important bc its what makes sure hair is healthy.This is what i read i cant remember the name of that dern book lol. So shampoo is just as important? What do u think of the lorel sulfate free line?

I for one would love to learn things from you hairego




. Plz plz plz give us some info ~on knees begging~ ok ok how about just tell us about aussie and garnier are they horrid brands?

Or better yet are the sallys gvp versions of salon products really just as good?

Again i dont kow about the previous poster but i would love to have an expert opinion


----------



## Noir Sakura (May 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *HairEgo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif To the first bolded comment - *you are contridicting yourself. A more expensive shampoo has higher end ingredients. *
To the second bolded comment - I sure could supply you and anyone else who wanted to know ingredient and chemical compound lists, however....product education is something I get PAID to do, and even though i'm generally more then happy to answer any hair related questions as many users will atest too, i'm not particularily willing to jeprodize my career by posting brand testing info.

You are entitled to your opinion, just as everyone else on the forum is. I'm not here to make everyone agree with me...i'm here cause hair is my passion





No I'm not. A quality ingredient is a quality ingredient, regardless of what you SPENT on it. Take for example EVOO. Brand A EVOO costs $2 and Brand B EVOO costs $10. Even though you spent $8 extra for Brand B, that doesn't change the fact that both contain EVOO. If EVOO works for your hair, Brand A will work just as well as Brand B, even though it's "cheap".
As for the second part, of course I don't want anyone to lose their job. But anyone can get an ingredient list of a finished product from the walgreens.com or something. So I'm just saying can you show me a list with where it explicitly states there is wax in a conditioner. I don't need brand testing info because I would not use an untested product. I've taken a few chemistry classes and sat in on a few cosmetology classes, so I know ingredients and why they work and what they are supposed to do. You can PM me if you want.

I too am passionate about hair (you should see how many books I have and how many forums I'm a member of), but I think FACTS about individual ingredients provide a consumer with far more information than a biased OPINION by a company that may have vested interests.

Originally Posted by *TwinkletOes26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I have read that conditoner is wayyyy more important i for get where it was a hair book i saw at books a million. They said all shampoo is the same basic ingredients(now mind you i read this book in the 90s so maybe things have changed) and conditoner is most important bc its what makes sure hair is healthy.This is what i read i cant remember the name of that dern book lol. So shampoo is just as important? What do u think of the lorel sulfate free line?
I for one would love to learn things from you hairego



. Plz plz plz give us some info ~on knees begging~ ok ok how about just tell us about aussie and garnier are they horrid brands?

Or better yet are the sallys gvp versions of salon products really just as good?

Again i dont kow about the previous poster but i would love to have an expert opinion





I haven't tried this shampoo yet, but I did get a free sample of the moisture line in the mail. If you go to the L'Oreal site, I think you can sign up to have one sent to you.


----------



## TwinkletOes26 (May 9, 2009)

Don't Go Shopping For Hair Products Without Me &lt;--- thats the name of the book i read it in the late 90s early 00s...it was an interesting book. She said when it comes to drug store vs salon that it depends on your hair.


----------



## HairEgo (May 9, 2009)

Lets try this with a different approach...

I buy a bottle of nail polish from the dollar store; it contains acetates as all nail polishes do. I paint my nails today and by tommorow evening, all my polish has chipped off.

So I decide to buy a bottle of polish from the nail salon. I paint my nails and am surprised to find that my polish has lasted 4-5 days on the nails without chipping. Both nail polishes contain acetates; however, the dollar store nail polish uses formaldhyde as a preservative and hardener; the salon bought polish brand has found a way to preserve and harden their lacquer without using formaldehyde - but the ingredient used costs more essentially becuase its better/safer for you.

In no way am I saying anything about polish and my knowledge of polish; I'm using polish purely as an example.

The point is, while the main ingredient is the same in both polishes, brand "B" has better quality ingredients and has found a way to eliminate formaldehyde from its lacquers.

Everything I just said can be related back to hair care; while protein is listed as an ingredient on both the cheap and expensive shampoo's, there are different types of protein with different strengths, so while both shampoo's contain protein, shampoo B has a higher percentage of protein then shampoo A does...

Making sense?


----------



## TwinkletOes26 (May 9, 2009)

Im not disputing you one but like with a cheap nail polish it can be helped with a good base and good top coat...often times a good condish can help with a cheap shampoo at least from what i have read what works with peeps hair(im on several forums and have read several hair books). I know with me i used nexxus and ive used sunsilk and i didnt notice a diff in my hair but thats just me. I notice a BIG difference in cheap condish vs salon condish.So maybe the fact that i use a salon brand(sally knock off LOL) helps with the moisture sucking affects of the shampoo. Also i co wash the day b4 i actually shampoo(got that tip from a curly girls book) and so maybe that helps too. I think it does boil down to hair. Again not disuputing you one bit but just throwing things out there...So in a sense maybe the salon brand deep condish and condish are like a good base and top coat..

I hope that made sense

again not disputing you...youve been nothing but helpful God knows you have helped my hair. I used kpack like you said my hair breakage is GONE...but im just throwing that out there as maybe why ppl dont think shampoo matters bc the salon brand deep and regular condish helps with the moisture the cheap shampoo sucked out.

On another note i dont shampoo the length of my hair except twice month bc i read that when you rinse out the shampoo slides down the shaft taking product with it is this true?


----------



## HairEgo (May 9, 2009)

Yes twinkle, thats true. I dont shampoo the length of my hair what so ever...I have really long hair and and being so, it is naturally going to be dryer. The only time I will shampoo the length is if I am using a clarifying shampoo.

Glad to hear the k-pak is workin out for you





I'm going to point out again that I'm not here to try and convince anyone on here that my knowledge trumps their knowledge or to force my opinion down peoples throats; i'm simply sharing the facts i know to be true as I have been in the hair industry for 9 years and have held various positions during that time (brand market research, product educator, stylist..etc) and being so, have absorbed a great deal of knowledge.


----------



## Noir Sakura (May 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *HairEgo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Lets try this with a different approach...
I buy a bottle of nail polish from the dollar store; it contains acetates as all nail polishes do. I paint my nails today and by tommorow evening, all my polish has chipped off.

So I decide to buy a bottle of polish from the nail salon. I paint my nails and am surprised to find that my polish has lasted 4-5 days on the nails without chipping. Both nail polishes contain acetates; however, the dollar store nail polish uses formaldhyde as a preservative and hardener; the salon bought polish brand has found a way to preserve and harden their lacquer without using formaldehyde - but the ingredient used costs more essentially becuase its better/safer for you.

In no way am I saying anything about polish and my knowledge of polish; I'm using polish purely as an example.

The point is, while the main ingredient is the same in both polishes, brand "B" has better quality ingredients and has found a way to eliminate formaldehyde from its lacquers.

Everything I just said can be related back to hair care; while protein is listed as an ingredient on both the cheap and expensive shampoo's, there are different types of protein with different strengths, so while both shampoo's contain protein, shampoo B has a higher percentage of protein then shampoo A does...

Making sense?

You are still missing my point. If Shampoo A has water, SLS, foaming agent, preservative, fragrance as it's ingredient list and Shampoo B has water, SLS, foaming agent, preservative, fragrance as it's ingredient list, it's the same product regardless of what price is placed on it. Price is an emotional concern companies place on their product because they know so many consumers buy into the myth that if it costs more it's better when that is not always the case.


----------



## HairEgo (May 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Noir Sakura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif You are still missing my point. If Shampoo A has water, SLS, foaming agent, preservative, fragrance as it's ingredient list and Shampoo B has water, SLS, foaming agent, preservative, fragrance as it's ingredient list, it's the same product regardless of what price is placed on it. Price is an emotional concern companies place on their product because they know so many consumers buy into the myth that if it costs more it's better when that is not always the case. And you are missing MY point.....as I said before, while the ingredient list may be the same there are different variations of said ingredient.....


----------



## TwinkletOes26 (May 9, 2009)

HE one question though then im tip toeing out of here cos its getting HOT LOL ....

Have you ever heard of sallys beauty supplies versions of salon brands they claim to be the same thing i have the kpak knock off of theirs....is it the same or is that a lie?


----------



## Noir Sakura (May 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *HairEgo* /img/forum/go_quote.gif And you are missing MY point.....as I said before, while the ingredient list may be the same there are different variations of said ingredient..... That may or may not be true. However, even if it is, the "better" variation of the ingredients will not always be in the more expensive product container.


----------



## Ricci (May 9, 2009)

The ones that are trying to prove Hairego wrong .. just keep using the cheap shampoo u always have been





To Hairego; some people are stubborn , even though they haven't tried the healthier stuff .. oh well its their loss I guess ..


----------



## internetchick (May 9, 2009)

I agree with you Noir Sakura. I have naturally curly hair, and have tried the gamut of products(spendy and cheap) to get my hair right. Spendy didn't get me better results.

Ricci, why be condescending just because some disagree with you? How mature is that?


----------



## Ricci (May 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *internetchick* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I agree with you Noir Sakura. I have naturally curly hair, and have tried the gamut of products(spendy and cheap) to get my hair right. Spendy didn't get me better results.
Ricci, why be condescending just because some disagree with you? How mature is that?

Dont make me look bad when I didnt do anything wrong.. we r allowed to make a point
my point was people argue about things even though they havent given the stuff a chance or never tried it


----------



## StereoXGirl (May 9, 2009)

Who knew conversations about hair could get so heated? lol.





IMO, price does generally reflect quality...but I don't believe that is an absolute. HairEgo used nail polish as an example, so I'll go with that. NYC makes nail polish that is cheap, DBP Free, Toluene Free &amp; Free of Added Formaldehyde and it lasts at least a week without chipping. I think it's possible to find good nail polishes, cosmetics, and haircare products at the drugstore so long as you know what you're looking for. It's just easier to find good products at a salon.


----------



## Adrienne (May 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *StereoXGirl* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Who knew conversations about hair could get so heated? lol.




IMO, price does generally reflect quality...but I don't believe that is an absolute. HairEgo used nail polish as an example, so I'll go with that. NYC makes nail polish that is cheap, DBP Free, Toluene Free &amp; Free of Added Formaldehyde and it lasts at least a week without chipping. I think it's possible to find good nail polishes, cosmetics, and haircare products at the drugstore so long as you know what you're looking for. It's just easier to find good products at a salon.

Well said


----------



## internetchick (May 9, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Ricci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Dont make me look bad when I didnt do anything wrong.. we r allowed to make a point
my point was people argue about things even though they havent given the stuff a chance or never tried it

I am not making you look bad. I like the info being shared by some, but can do without condescension. IMO it was not necessary to call people stubborn who disagree, and to assume things like they haven't tried anything other than cheap products.


----------



## Ricci (May 9, 2009)

Quote:
How mature is that? This wasnt making me look bad? that was IMHO as well and Im allowed to express my opinions as well as long as it wasnt mean and I wasnt being mean at all

Originally Posted by *internetchick* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I am not making you look bad. I like the info being shared by some, but can do without condescension. IMO it was not necessary to call people stubborn who disagree, and to assume things like they haven't tried anything other than cheap products.


----------



## Aprill (May 9, 2009)

Cut it



love you both hugs, kisses, and glittery ponies


----------



## TwinkletOes26 (May 9, 2009)

My im use to seeing drama on the other forums im on but here i never see any lol this is strange. Ricci i agree with Internet Chick. Dont assume bc some choose to keep using drugstore brands that they have never tried salon brands. Ive tried salon brands off and on when i could afford them and like i said b4 i saw no diff with shampoo on deep and regular condish.


----------



## Adrienne (May 9, 2009)

I want a glittery pony LOL


----------



## HairEgo (May 9, 2009)

*Gives Adrienne a glitter pony*


----------



## TwinkletOes26 (May 9, 2009)

awwwww cute


----------



## Ricci (May 9, 2009)

Its all good





Originally Posted by *TwinkletOes26* /img/forum/go_quote.gif My im use to seeing drama on the other forums im on but here i never see any lol this is strange. Ricci i agree with Internet Chick. Dont assume bc some choose to keep using drugstore brands that they have never tried salon brands. Ive tried salon brands off and on when i could afford them and like i said b4 i saw no diff with shampoo on deep and regular condish.


----------



## Noir Sakura (May 10, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Ricci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif The ones that are trying to prove Hairego wrong .. just keep using the cheap shampoo u always have been



To Hairego; some people are stubborn , even though they haven't tried the healthier stuff .. oh well its their loss I guess ..

I will keep using my cheap shampoo thank you very much, seeing as how all the expensive ones I tried contained ingredients that made my hair tangled and dry. And I haven't lost any hair due to using my affordable shampoo.

All I'm trying to do is show that there are alternatives to everything and that people need to get over brand snobbery. If all expensive products worked all the time for everyone, you'd always see a direct positive correlation between customer satisfaction and product price, but you don't. Look at all the "don't waste your money on XXX product". So obviously spending money doesn't make a product better for you. Step outside the box of your salon and you can find loads of good quality products at the drugstore of beauty supply store.


----------



## Ricci (May 10, 2009)

Its not about brand snobbery its about clashing opinions

Originally Posted by *Noir Sakura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will keep using my cheap shampoo thank you very much, seeing as how all the expensive ones I tried contained ingredients that made my hair tangled and dry. And I haven't lost any hair due to using my affordable shampoo.
All I'm trying to do is show that there are alternatives to everything and that people need to get over brand snobbery. If all expensive products worked all the time for everyone, you'd always see a direct positive correlation between customer satisfaction and product price, but you don't. Look at all the "don't waste your money on XXX product". So obviously spending money doesn't make a product better for you. Step outside the box of your salon and you can find loads of good quality products at the drugstore of beauty supply store.

Quote:
seeing as how all the expensive ones I tried contained ingredients that made my hair tangled and dry Im really curios which product u used to get that kind of result!


----------



## Noir Sakura (May 10, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Ricci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Its not about brand snobbery its about clashing opinions Well it seems that because I'm not an "expert" my opinion doesn't matter and I don't think that's fair. I've done my research too.

Quote:
Im really curios which product u used to get that kind of result! Oh, too many to name. I used to be a salon junkie, and only used what my stylist recommended. I tried Aveda, Redken, Dudley Q, Nexxus (when it was a salon only product), Back to Basics, and a whole host of others. The only shampoo I used at the time that worked for my hair without hurting it was my cheap Suave Daily Clarifying that I had just bought on a whim. So I checked the ingredients to see if there were similarities and differences and there were. All the salon products used SLS as their cleansing agent and the Suave used ALS. So there it was. I was using two different ingredients and one obviously worked better than the other for my hair, so price had nothing to do with it.
I never thought that sulfates were bad (though some hair companies would have you believe so), but I also didn't think there was a difference between SLS and ALS, but obviously there was and SLS just did not work for me. And try as I might, I could not find a salon shampoo with ALS in it. Almost all of them were SLS so I knew they wouldn't work because of that ingredient. So that lead me to the drugstore to search. And there too, I kept running in SLS. I only found 4 shampoos that had ALS. And those are the only shampoos I'm willing to use now.


----------



## Ricci (May 10, 2009)

I never said that

Quote:
Well it seems that because I'm not an "expert" my opinion doesn't matter and I don't think that's fair. I've done my research too. 


Originally Posted by *Noir Sakura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Well it seems that because I'm not an "expert" my opinion doesn't matter and I don't think that's fair. I've done my research too.
Oh, too many to name. I used to be a salon junkie, and only used what my stylist recommended. I tried Aveda, Redken, Dudley Q, Nexxus (when it was a salon only product), Back to Basics, and a whole host of others. The only shampoo I used at the time that worked for my hair without hurting it was my cheap Suave Daily Clarifying that I had just bought on a whim. So I checked the ingredients to see if there were similarities and differences and there were. All the salon products used SLS as their cleansing agent and the Suave used ALS. So there it was. I was using two different ingredients and one obviously worked better than the other for my hair, so price had nothing to do with it.

I never thought that sulfates were bad (though some hair companies would have you believe so), but I also didn't think there was a difference between SLS and ALS, but obviously there was and SLS just did not work for me. And try as I might, I could not find a salon shampoo with ALS in it. Almost all of them were SLS so I knew they wouldn't work because of that ingredient. So that lead me to the drugstore to search. And there too, I kept running in SLS. I only found 4 shampoos that had ALS. And those are the only shampoos I'm willing to use now.

Have u tried Aura or Enimence?


----------



## Noir Sakura (May 10, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Ricci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Have u tried Aura or Enimence? I think I've heard of Aura, but never tried either. Are these ALS based? If not, I probably couldn't use them.


----------



## Ricci (May 10, 2009)

Exuce my ignorance what is ALS?

Originally Posted by *Noir Sakura* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I think I've heard of Aura, but never tried either. Are these ALS based? If not, I probably couldn't use them. they are organic products


----------



## Orangeeyecrayon (May 10, 2009)

ALS and SLS are both sulfates and they are the agents that clean your hair.

i was thinking you seem to like the more clensing products, is it possible that you used products that were to harsh for your hair?

i dont know all the high end brands you used, but i do knw aveda very well and the most popular one is rosemarry mint, which is also the most drying and stripping of the hair. which means the most tangling.

i dont think that it is ALS and SLS that is the problem, just professional products tend to be more efficent at there job wheter it be clarifying or hydrating ext. so it could be that clarifying shampoos that are professional products are just to harsh for your hair


----------



## Dragonfly (May 10, 2009)

One idea that has not been mentioned is when the same company makes both a salon line and a drug store line.

Years ago when I worked, I purchased Schwarzkopf products from where i got my hair cut.

I thought the line was fabulous and my hair looked great.

I became disabled and now live on a third of my salary. I could no longer afford Schwarzkopf products.

I did some research and discovered that a drug store line called Got2b, is made by Schwarzkopf - and for a 1/4 of the cost.

So I use the Got2b and guess what - its the same stuff as Schwarzkopf!

Same hold, same fragrance, same quality - same everything!

Moral of the story is - there are drug store lines that are just as good as salon lines.

In fact, they are better because they are much less expensive.

Not picking on L'Oreal - just using the company as an example:

Makes we wonder about L'Oreal making high end products and drug store products.

Any chance that the products all use the same ingredient, even though Kerastase is marketed as "salon" quality?

Reality is - the ingredients are all the same - except L'oreal pockets more money as people are willing to shell out more money because they believe that the more they spend, the better the quality.


----------



## Noir Sakura (May 10, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Ricci* /img/forum/go_quote.gif they are organic products I've sometimes had problems with natural/organic products, but I will still look them up.

Originally Posted by *Orangeeyecrayon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif i was thinking you seem to like the more clensing products, is it possible that you used products that were to harsh for your hair?

i dont know all the high end brands you used, but i do knw aveda very well and the most popular one is rosemarry mint, which is also the most drying and stripping of the hair. which means the most tangling.

i dont think that it is ALS and SLS that is the problem, just professional products tend to be more efficent at there job wheter it be clarifying or hydrating ext. so it could be that clarifying shampoos that are professional products are just to harsh for your hair

You know, I never used a high end clarifying shampoo because my stylists always recommended a hydrating/moisturizing shampoo because my hair was so dry. But I definitely think that SLS is just an ingredient in shampoo I can't use because even when I tried the drugstore shampoos with SLS, I got the same tangly, dry hair. The main shampoo I use now is Herbal Essences Hello Hydration. It's ALS based and moisturizing. Now, if there was a salon product comparable to it, I would definitely buy it because salon products come in salon sizes and I would probably only have to buy say a gallon size once a year instead of the small bottle at the drugstore every 3-4 months.

Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* /img/forum/go_quote.gif One idea that has not been mentioned is when the same company makes both a salon line and a drug store line.
Years ago when I worked, I purchased Schwarzkopf products from where i got my hair cut.

I thought the line was fabulous and my hair looked great.

I became disabled and now live on a third of my salary. I could no longer afford Schwarzkopf products.

I did some research and discovered that a drug store line called Got2b, is made by Schwarzkopf - and for a 1/4 of the cost.

So I use the Got2b and guess what - its the same stuff as Schwarzkopf!

Same hold, same fragrance, same quality - same everything!

Moral of the story is - there are drug store lines that are just as good as salon lines.

In fact, they are better because they are much less expensive.

*Not picking on L'Oreal - just using the company as an example:*

Makes we wonder about L'Oreal making high end products and drug store products.

Any chance that the products all use the same ingredient, even though Kerastase is marketed as "salon" quality?

Reality is - the ingredients are all the same - except L'oreal pockets more money as people are willing to shell out more money because they believe that the more they spend, the better the quality.

This thought has crossed my mind also. Because drugstore brands are "cheap", they can sell more product volume and therefore put more money into research. So I don't think they would do all that testing and research only to turn around and put low quality ingredients back into the products.
As for L'Oreal, I've been to one of their research and testing facilities and they have the high end products right up there with the drugstore products. I don't know if they actually make the products there, but I do know you can sign up to have them test products on you and you have an equal chance of being picked for a drugstore product or salon brand, but they say the quality will be the same.


----------



## Ricci (May 10, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Orangeeyecrayon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif i was thinking you seem to like the more clensing products, is it possible that you used products that were to harsh for your hair?
i dont know all the high end brands you used, but i do knw aveda very well and the most popular one is rosemarry mint, which is also the most drying and stripping of the hair. which means the most tangling.

i dont think that it is ALS and SLS that is the problem, just professional products tend to be more efficent at there job wheter it be clarifying or hydrating ext. so it could be that clarifying shampoos that are professional products are just to harsh for your hair

What makes u think its too harsh for my hair? My hair is in really good shape actually,Is this what the products did to your hair? I'm assuming its because your hair is bleached blond? and is probably already damaged from the bleaching ?I don't find Aura drying at all!

Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Years ago when I worked, I purchased Schwarzkopf products from where i got my hair cut.I thought the line was fabulous and my hair looked great.

I became disabled and now live on a third of my salary. I could no longer afford Schwarzkopf products.

I did some research and discovered that a drug store line called Got2b, is made by Schwarzkopf - and for a 1/4 of the cost.

So I use the Got2b and guess what - its the same stuff as Schwarzkopf!

Same hold, same fragrance, same quality - same everything!

There must be a reason why its cheaper (Got2B) Im assuming its not exactly the same as Schwarzkopf line


----------



## Orangeeyecrayon (May 10, 2009)

@ricci: i only mean products made to clarify the hair, when used everday. i dont know about the shampoo you use but aveda makes one called rosemarry mint too, i dont use it on my hair, while my hair is not bleached it is blonde which means less protiesn so if i want it long i have to be careful with it.

i used to go to school at aveda, which means aveda products only, and while some people requested rosemarry mint for the smell, besides requests we really only used it if we had done hair care and needed to make sure all the color or bleach washed off, and on our manequins to get rid to the rank smell they have when they first come. So while clarifying shampoos are good and nesecary they should IMHO be used sparingly.

i am going to assume that the aura shampoo is much more moisturizing than the aveda one. i just used the aveda one as an example since it is the only shampoo line i know well, but i am assuming all shampoo companies make some more moisturizing and some more cleansing shampoos

also i was looking online at the ingredients of products, cause i have no life. I think the price diffrence is most likely due to the proportion of the products, i only looked at conditioners. and i found that both high end and low end products contain waxes, however the drugstore brand contained more. My guess is there is a higher percentage of the less expensive ingredients in the drugstore and the high end have a higher percentage of the more expensive ingredients (when compared with each other). i am just guessing though i only compared two, but it seems like a logical reasoning. as nora sakura said, she only gets drugstore stuff cause that has ALS rather than SLS, maybe ALS (aluminum laurel sulfate) is less expensive than Sodium laurel sulfate. which would make sense also since aluminum laurel sulfate is more likely to form since it is a sault, where are sodium laurel sulfate is not a salt and more energy has to be put in to form this product since the charge on the sodium is not negated by the sulfate

@Nora Sakura:

i see, well everyones hair is diffrent some peoples hair like ALS some like SLS and some hair likes sulfate free. if you have one that does not agree with your hair you sure as heck will get tangles and it will be dry and lack luster and be frizzy. You are pretty lucky that the one that works for you is found in less expensive brands. i am sure there are ALS and SLS in both high end and low end brands, i dont look at ingredients enough to know. Im more of the ohh this packaging looks pretty type of shampoo buyer, and if the shampoo has a blue tone (which is suposed to tone down gold tones in blonde hair) im sold. i think for me that is proboably more of why i personaly use high end brands, because they have yet to make a blue or purple color depositing drug store brand shampoo. (i know they have john frieds sheer blonde, but they make your hair more yellow than anything). I would just contribute your hair issues with SLS to just that, the SLS.


----------



## Noir Sakura (May 10, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Orangeeyecrayon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif @ricci: i only mean products made to clarify the hair, when used everday. i dont know about the shampoo you use but aveda makes one called rosemarry mint too, i dont use it on my hair, while my hair is not bleached it is blonde which means less protiesn so if i want it long i have to be careful with it.
i used to go to school at aveda, which means aveda products only, and while some people requested rosemarry mint for the smell, besides requests we really only used it if we had done hair care and needed to make sure all the color or bleach washed off, and on our manequins to get rid to the rank smell they have when they first come. So while clarifying shampoos are good and nesecary they should IMHO be used sparingly.

i am going to assume that the aura shampoo is much more moisturizing than the aveda one. i just used the aveda one as an example since it is the only shampoo line i know well, but i am assuming all shampoo companies make some more moisturizing and some more cleansing shampoos

also i was looking online at the ingredients of products, cause i have no life. I think the price diffrence is most likely due to the proportion of the products, i only looked at conditioners. and i found that both high end and low end products contain waxes, however the drugstore brand contained more. My guess is there is a higher percentage of the less expensive ingredients in the drugstore and the high end have a higher percentage of the more expensive ingredients (when compared with each other). i am just guessing though i only compared two, but it seems like a logical reasoning. as nora sakura said, she only gets drugstore stuff cause that has ALS rather than SLS, maybe ALS (aluminum laurel sulfate) is less expensive than Sodium laurel sulfate. which would make sense also since aluminum laurel sulfate is more likely to form since it is a sault, where are sodium laurel sulfate is not a salt and more energy has to be put in to form this product since the charge on the sodium is not negated by the sulfate

@Nora Sakura:

i see, well everyones hair is diffrent some peoples hair like ALS some like SLS and some hair likes sulfate free. if you have one that does not agree with your hair you sure as heck will get tangles and it will be dry and lack luster and be frizzy. You are pretty lucky that the one that works for you is found in less expensive brands. i am sure there are ALS and SLS in both high end and low end brands, i dont look at ingredients enough to know. Im more of the ohh this packaging looks pretty type of shampoo buyer, and if the shampoo has a blue tone (which is suposed to tone down gold tones in blonde hair) im sold. i think for me that is proboably more of why i personaly use high end brands, because they have yet to make a blue or purple color depositing drug store brand shampoo. (i know they have john frieds sheer blonde, but they make your hair more yellow than anything). I would just contribute your hair issues with SLS to just that, the SLS.

SLS and ALS cost about the same to make. And actually SLS would be considered a slightly cheaper ingredient, that's why it's the most popular cleansing agent in shampoo versus ALS or other surfactants. And neither ALS or SLS is a salt or else most commercial shampoo would dry everyone's hair out.

Here's some info on the difference between a lauryl and laureth sulfate. I will see if I can find the difference between aluminum based and sodium based sulfates later.

_Cleansing Agents_ - Anionic surfactants that are the main active ingredient in all shampoos. All other ingredients are added to improve the action of the surfactants or to alter the products texture, color, fragrance, or feel. The most common primary surfactants used in shampoos are 1) lauryl sulfates and 2) laury ether surfactants

1) Lauryl sulfates are used as the primary surfactnat because they are inexpensive and are very good cleansers, but the can be damaging to the hair and irritating to the skin.

2) Lauryl ether sulfates (laureth sulfate) are ethoxylated to produce a surfactant that is milder and less irritating.


----------



## Orangeeyecrayon (May 10, 2009)

technichley ALS is a salt, all a salt means is a metal and a nonmetal, or a second way is a non polarized body.

in this case it is a metal and a nonmetal compuound attatched to a carbon chain


----------



## Noir Sakura (May 10, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Orangeeyecrayon* /img/forum/go_quote.gif technichley ALS is a salt,* all a salt means is a metal and a nonmetal, or a second way is a non polarized body. *
in this case it is a metal and a nonmetal compuound attatched to a carbon chain

No, a salt is a product from mixing an acid with a base and they become neutralized. This is one chemistry concept I definitely grasped the first time I learned it, lol.
Here's some info on ALS (I got it from wikipedia), no mention of salt (or metal) anywhere.

*Ammonium lauryl sulfate (ALS)* is the common name for ammonium dodecyl sulfate (CH3(CH2)10CH2OSO3NH4). The dodecyl signifies the presence of a 12-member carbon chain in the molecular backbone which allows the molecule to bond with non-polar portions of molecules while the highly polar sulfate head allows the molecule to bond with polar molecules such as water. ALS is classified as an alkyl sulfate and is an anionic surfactant found primarily in shampoos and body-wash as a foaming agent.[1] Lauryl sulfates are very high-foam surfactants that disrupt the surface tension of water by forming micelles around the polar water molecules.

Ammonium lauryl sulfate, like any other surfactant, makes a good base for cleansers because of the way it disrupts the hydrogen bonding in water. Hydrogen bonding is the primary contributor to the high surface tension of water. In solution, the lauryl sulfate anions and the ammonium cations separate. The former align themselves into what is known as a micelle, in which the ions form a sphere, with the polar heads (the sulfate) on the surface of the sphere and the nonpolar hydrophobic tails pointing inwards towards the center. The water molecules around the micelle arrange themselves around the polar heads, but this disrupts their hydrogen bonding with the water surrounding them. The overall effect of having these micelles in an aqueous (water) environment is that the water becomes more able to penetrate things like cloth fibers or hair, and also becomes more readily available to solvate anything coming off the aforementioned substance.

And SLS, again, no salt.

*Sodium lauryl sulfate* (*SLS*) or *sodium dodecyl sulfate* (*SDS* or NaDS) (C12H25SO4Na) is an anionic surfactant used in many cleaning and hygiene products. The molecule has a tail of 12 carbon atoms, attached to a sulfate group, giving the molecule the amphiphilic properties required of a detergent.

SLS is a highly effective surfactant used in any task requiring the removal of oily stains and residues. As such the compound is found in high concentrations in industrial products including engine degreasers, floor cleaners, and car wash soaps. In household products, SLS is used in lower concentrations with toothpastes, shampoos, shaving foams, some dissolvable aspirins, fiber therapy caplets. It is an important component in bubble bath formulations for its thickening effect and its ability to create a lather.


----------



## Ozee (May 10, 2009)

see what happens if you have good hair!!!


----------



## HairEgo (May 10, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* /img/forum/go_quote.gif One idea that has not been mentioned is when the same company makes both a salon line and a drug store line.
Years ago when I worked, I purchased Schwarzkopf products from where i got my hair cut.

I thought the line was fabulous and my hair looked great.

I became disabled and now live on a third of my salary. I could no longer afford Schwarzkopf products.

I did some research and discovered that a drug store line called Got2b, is made by Schwarzkopf - and for a 1/4 of the cost.

So I use the Got2b and guess what - its the same stuff as Schwarzkopf!

Same hold, same fragrance, same quality - same everything!

Moral of the story is - there are drug store lines that are just as good as salon lines.

In fact, they are better because they are much less expensive.

Not picking on L'Oreal - just using the company as an example:

Makes we wonder about L'Oreal making high end products and drug store products.

Any chance that the products all use the same ingredient, even though Kerastase is marketed as "salon" quality?

Reality is - the ingredients are all the same - except L'oreal pockets more money as people are willing to shell out more money because they believe that the more they spend, the better the quality.

You would be surpirsed to learn what L'oreal owns....they own Lancome, Matrix, Kerastase, Vichy, Armani, Diesel, Shu Uemara, Mizni, Maybelline, Ralph Lauren, Keihls, Redken...the list goes on.


----------



## HairEgo (May 10, 2009)

LMAO Ozee....why does this never happen to me?!?!!?!


----------



## nibjet (May 11, 2009)

I think both are equally important. Some lines, specifically Matrix Amplify and Sleek Look are made to work together as a system. You won't get the result you're supposed to get at all if you don't use both together.

And as for cheap shampoo being just as good, I'll be the first to tell you I know next to nothing about drugstore brands, but I do a lot of extensions, and before that hair goes in someone's head, it's smooth, silky, perfect, like virgin hair. The women who don't heat style the crap out of it, and use good products, maintain that look. The one woman I had that refused to give up her herbal essences (no joke, 1200 for hair, why would you use $3 shampoo on it?!), that hair looked like it had been chewed on by a goat.

My opinion? It's worth the extra cash.


----------



## FilleDeVanille (May 14, 2009)

Shampoo is as important as conditioner, but in my opinion expensive is not = good.


----------



## Midnight Blue (May 18, 2009)

I think they are both important because they each make a difference in my hair -- a noticeable one. I have a tough time finding the ones that are just right. They seem to be either too harsh or too moisturizing -- I switch around a lot.

I like the L'Oreal Ever Pure line, but I'm wondering if my hair might not do better if I alternate with a "regular" shampoo. The conditioners are great. I really love them.


----------



## makennasdoll (May 19, 2009)

Originally Posted by *Ozee* /img/forum/go_quote.gif i think the 2 are equally as important. I agree


----------

