# Do you Vaccinate your children?



## MakeupByMe (May 14, 2010)

I know a huge variety of pple with different thoughts some do as dr's say &amp; do the newborn to 3 yr old shots &amp; so on for school

Than theres the others who dont do shots for fear of Autism or what not?

When my brother was younger he was healthy &amp; afer his 2 yr old shots he started to have seizures (eyes rolling foaming at the mouth etc) so my mom mstopped after that there was alot of debate over her actions &amp; im sure others have had their share of Great &amp; bad situations with vaccines ..........So what experiences have you MUT parents had &amp; please list your reasons for choosing the way you do!!!


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## Imprintwilight (May 14, 2010)

I'm absolutely going to vaccinate my kids. Why expose them to things that are preventable. Modern Medicine is only going forward and with the way the drug association is I doubt that they would expose us to something that was outwardly dangerous.


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## divadoll (May 14, 2010)

I agree. Why expose them to those that may possibly kill them?! They have actually retracted that suggestion that it is linked with autism. There is no link between vaccines and autism. Vaccines are not just to prevent pock marks on your loved ones faces or that they become itchy or have swollen glands, the vaccines are to prevent child mortality. Many kids used to die from these diseases.

Of course, the retraction is not as loud as when they first made that 'discovery'. Here's the article from Feb 2, 2010

CBC News - Health - Autism-vaccine study retracted


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## Imprintwilight (May 14, 2010)

Parents just want something to blame a childs sickness on. Vaccines are a good scapegoat


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## Johnnie (May 14, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Imprintwilight* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Parents just want something to blame a childs sickness on. Vaccines are a good scapegoat Oh don't even get me started with this comment!

I choose not to vaccinate. I'll leave it at that ;^)


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## Karren (May 14, 2010)

We did and would again...


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## KGW (May 14, 2010)

I always hate putting my kids through the shots, but I do believe in vaccinating. At least for the major vaccinations (i.e. measles, mumps, rubella). I don't think that we need to get carried away and vaccinate for everything under the sun though.


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## akathegnat (May 14, 2010)

I agree with Johnnie with this one. I saw what they did to my younger sister. We just about lost her, and after that my mom told them no more. We had to always petition the schools that she wasn't vaccinated, but she just fine now. Healthy at 22.


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## Dragonfly (May 15, 2010)

There is absolutely no link between autism and vaccines.

I love my child and would never do anything to hurt him. So why would I expose him to diseases by not vaccinating him?

Also, I believe that many school districts will not let children attend school unless they are completely vaccinated - I don't intend to deny my son a proper education either.


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## AudreyNola (May 15, 2010)

I didn't vote because we were on a regular vaccination schedule with my son when I read Dr. Sears Vaccination Book and we stopped, he was 10 months old. We will continue with the vaccinations that are most important when he is older. I got the book because I really felt like the vaccines affected my son negatively and after his last set I was very worried about his behavior, which is why I started looking into the subject. I will follow Dr. Sears selective vaccination schedule for subsequent children, I really think that clustering vaccinations is terrible and not all vaccines are necessary.

Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* /img/forum/go_quote.gif There is absolutely no link between autism and vaccines.I love my child and would never do anything to hurt him. So why would I expose him to diseases by not vaccinating him?

Also, I believe that many school districts will not let children attend school unless they are completely vaccinated - I don't intend to deny my son a proper education either.

In most states you can claim religious/moral reasons for not getting vaccines and gain exemption. That may disturb you if you're sending your child to school with unvaccinated children but I'm not vaccinating mine if it's to his detriment and I support anyone's right to do the same. The aluminum in vaccines is disturbing and I hope the CDC is working on reformulating with safer ingredients and preservatives.


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## Dragonfly (May 16, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Audrey2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif In most states you can claim religious/moral reasons for not getting vaccines and gain exemption. That may disturb you if you're sending your child to school with unvaccinated children but I'm not vaccinating mine if it's to his detriment and I support anyone's right to do the same. The aluminum in vaccines is disturbing and I hope the CDC is working on reformulating with safer ingredients and preservatives. Vaccination and education may be regional issues - my understanding is that Canadian children in must be vaccinated properly and in a timely fashion, in order to attend school. Not all vaccinations are compulsary but many are.


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## divadoll (May 16, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Dragonfly* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Vaccination and education may be regional issues - my understanding is that Canadian children in must be vaccinated properly and in a timely fashion, in order to attend school. Not all vaccinations are compulsary but many are. I think pretty much all vaccinations that they are scheduled to have is compulsory. However, the timely issue is not strict as children who were not born in Canada would not have the same vaccination schedule. They will have to provide proof that the vaccinations are all done adequately before or when the child enters kindergarten. They won't deny them registration because its just not the Canadian way but the health nurse will phone you alot to remind you. I'm not sure what happens if you flatout refuse.


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## Dragonfly (May 17, 2010)

If anyone's interested, here's Ontario Canada Ministry of Health information on immunization.

Ontario Ministry of Health and Long-Term Care - Public Information - Publications - Immunization - Immunization : Your Best Protection


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## Darla (May 17, 2010)

In Maryland the following vaccines are required in order to enroll:

Maryland State immunization regulations require all students to have completed their immunizations in order to attend school. Proof of the completed immunization series must be provided before the first day of school. Required shots include:

* 4 DTP

* 3 polio

* 2 measles

* 1 mumps

* 1 rubella

* 3 hepatitis B

* 1 varicella (chicken pox)

Several of these vaccines have been available for generations. I had seen documentaries of the effects of polio and it is my understanding that the disease once though eradicated is making a bit of a comeback. I would not want to see a child today get polio for any reason, but especially if a parent thinks they are potentially doing their child harm. If you weigh the probabilities of complications that a vaccination _might_ cause against what damage the disease could cause there is absolutely no comparison.

I googled this question and found a bunch of accounts from health organizations trying to dispel this bit of common misinformation. On the flip side the claims that these vaccines are dangerous are very anecdotal and not scientifically documented.


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## divadoll (May 17, 2010)

My uncle had polio. Its not easy when the parents make the decision and the child has to suffer from that misinformed decision.


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## AudreyNola (May 17, 2010)

^Maryland allows the religious exemption:

School Immunization Exemption State Laws

Injected aluminum = not good:

AskDrSears - Updates for The Vaccine Book

And this doesn't even get into a bunch of other junk (like formaldehyde) that is still put in vaccines.

The bottom line is there needs to be more studies done by _many different_ scientists on vaccinated infants. Of course diseases are bad and of course I don't want anyone contracting a virus or disease. My problem is that it seems like the CDC is so busy promoting literature that says vaccines have no link to autism and the ingredients are safe, rather than working on an ingredient list that accomplishes the performance they need without subjecting children to harmful chemicals and known toxins. And just because a link between vaccines and autism is inconclusive doesn't mean there is no link, just that scientists haven't found one.

Also, it is easy to find nice, polished government websites that have the "official" word on the matter, while team "green vaccines" is mom and pop, nothing but hearsay - just a bunch of parents who know their children and noticed differences in their child's behavior after vaccinations. In reality neither side has conclusive evidence.


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## Darla (May 17, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Audrey2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif And just because a link between vaccines and autism is inconclusive doesn't mean there is no link, just that scientists haven't found one.

I would fully acknowledge that there may be a small statistically connection between autism and vaccinations, and i agree scientists don't know conclusively that this link doesn't exist. and I fully agree that more work should be done studying this issue, sadly the manufacturers of the vaccine have no vested interest in doing this.
But you're missing my point, to not vaccinate creates inherent risks with the child that I believe are much greater than the possibility of autism. It is a tradeoff to be sure and based on that analysis of the statistics the prudent action is to vaccinate.


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## divadoll (May 17, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Darla* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would fully acknowledge that there may be a small statistically connection between autism and vaccinations, and i agree scientists don't know conclusively that this link doesn't exist. and I fully agree that more work should be done studying this issue, sadly the manufacturers of the vaccine have no vested interest in doing this.
But you're missing my point, to not vaccinate creates inherent risks with the child that I believe are much greater than the possibility of autism. It is a tradeoff to be sure and based on that analysis of the statistics the prudent action is to vaccinate.

Sometimes you can't make people understand your point no matter how logical it is. These are the exceptions to the rule and the 1%of the 100%. Hopefully, nothing bad will happen as a result of their decision not to vaccinate. Maybe they want to live thru their kids going thru their chilldhood diseases like chicken pox where they get pox inside their mouths and on their eyelids and diaper areas and the scarring or polio where the muscles on their limbs degenerate, or scarlet fever or german measles or hepatitis b which attacks the liver...all for a thought that their may be a link between the vaccine and autism which was retracted. 
They are actually studying a link between the testosterone levels in the mother during pregnancy. This makes more sense.


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## xjackie83 (May 17, 2010)

I will definitely be using a modified schedule to vaccinate my future children. According to the Center of Disease Control by the time a child is one years old they should have approximately 19 vaccines! 19!

I know as an adult how my body feels after I have one vaccine. I've sworn off getting a flu shot for myself because of how horrible and sick I get after wards and how my arm is numb for weeks afterwards.

I can't imagine what's going on inside an infants body as it gets injected with multiple vaccinations all at once.


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## Dragonfly (May 17, 2010)

There are studies that show a link between autism and schizophrenia.

Schizophrenia is not a virus nor is it found in vaccinations.


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## Johnnie (May 17, 2010)

Here's a book listing for anyone interested.

Quote:
Books:
"What Your Doctor May Not Tell You About Childhood Immunizations" by Dr. Stephanie Cave (This book and the next are great starting points. This one has some very thorough but simple explanations about autism and other autoimmune conditions related to vaccines, the history of each vaccine and the production of each vaccine. I am SO glad I read it because it clarified a LOT of things about vaccines that I have heard about. Very worth reading!! This next one is great as well...)

The Parent's Concise Guide to Childhood Vaccinations; Practical Medical and Natural Ways to Protect Your Child by Dr. Lauren Feder, M.D. (This one is written in very plain English, easy to read and understand. She compares all sides of the argument, holistic, medical, pro-vax and anti-vax. This one is good but doesn't go into great detail about the hows and whys of ALL the rumors of vaccines as the previous one does but what I like about it is the inclusion of the holistic perspectives.)

Vaccines, Are They Really Safe and Effective by Neil Z. Miller (This one has each and every vaccine up through adulthood vaccines and is a great resource for deciding weather to selectively vaccinate. It's short and full of a lot of good information. His books are a good starting place but read other authors if you start with this one.)

Immunization Theory vs Reality by Niel Z. Miller (This one is short as well. It has a little bit more technical and medical jargon, but is still relatively easy to read. I suggest the one above first.)

Natural Baby and Childcare by Dr. Lauren Feder, M.D.

The Vaccine Book by Robert Sears, M.D. (I personally do not care for this book. He actually suggests combo vaccines - which are the most dangerous ones! And he's just way too pro-vaccination for me. I would not recommend this book to anyone. Some selective vaccinators and vaccinators do like it but I think he just leaves out too much of the controversial stuff and focuses on why vaccines are good. It's better to read something that covers all sides of the issue.)

What the Pharmaceutical Industry Does Not Wat you To Know About VACCINES by Dr. Todd M. Elsner (I have not read this one yet, but it is written by the husband of a member in this group)

ExemptMyChild

The Truth About Vaccines by Dr Richard Halvorsen

Vaccination The Hidden Facts by Ian Sinclair (This is an older book, but it has a lot of good graphs. I didn't really like the format of this one and you can find much better and newer books that have the same information. Plus it has a grim reaper on the front which seems a little alarmist to me, lol.)

Raising A Vaccine Free Child by Wendy Lydall

A Shot In The Dark by Harris L. Coulter &amp; Barbara Loe Fisher

(Why the P in the DPT vaccination may be hazardous to your child's health)

The Sanctity Of Human Blood: Vaccination Is Not Immunization by Tim O'Shea

"Vaccination: A Thoughtful Parent's Guide to Childhood Immunizations" by Aviva Romm This one has some pretty technical explanations of how the immune system works and how vaccines are supposed to work. It includes sections about travel, medical emergencies, nutrition, herbal remedies, homeopathy and laws for non-vaccinators. It's pretty thorough but I wouldn't recommend it as a first book to read on the topic. See Cave's book above for that.

"How to Raise a Healthy Child, In Spite of your Doctor" by Dr. Robert Mendelsohn This one is great. I love all the good points he makes about medical care and how unnecessary well baby visits are. There are references to older drugs, and a few things he talks about are a little different now because this book was written in the eighties, but it still gives great insight into the realities of pediatric care that EVERY parent should know about. The inadequacies of medical training and the entire profession are outlined. Wonderful resource!

"Evidence of Harm" by David Kirby

â€œVaccinations: A Thoughtful Parent's Guide: How to Make Safe, Sensible Decisions about the Risks, Benefits, and Alternativesâ€ by Aviva Jill Romm

Vaccination Crisis by Vance Ferrell

http://www.pathlights.com/nr_encyclo...ion-Crisis.pdf

Just a Little Prick by Hilary Butler

Naturally Healthy Babies and Children: A Commonsense Guide to Herbal Remedies, Nutrition, and Health by Aviva Romm

Natural Cures by Kevin Trudeau Basically it is a book written by a man that has been on both sides of the fence on this issue. He has written this book to educate people about drug companies that very well know that they are harming human lives, but doing it anyway, for the money. It also has controversial topics as the Federal Gov't is in on this as well as the FDA.

This is a link to the K.N.O.W. Vaccines website's book list that has a list of lots of medical books: K.N.O.W. Vaccines - Resource Links


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## AudreyNola (May 17, 2010)

Originally Posted by *divadoll* /img/forum/go_quote.gif My uncle had polio. Its not easy when the parents make the decision and the child has to suffer from that misinformed decision. Originally Posted by *divadoll* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Sometimes you can't make people understand your point no matter how logical it is. These are the exceptions to the rule and the 1%of the 100%. Hopefully, nothing bad will happen as a result of their decision not to vaccinate. * Maybe they want to live thru their kids going thru their chilldhood diseases like chicken pox where they get pox inside their mouths and on their eyelids and diaper areas and the scarring or polio where the muscles on their limbs degenerate, or scarlet fever or german measles or hepatitis b which attacks the liver*...all for a thought that their may be a link between the vaccine and autism which was retracted. 
They are actually studying a link between the testosterone levels in the mother during pregnancy. This makes more sense.

You'll have to excuse me for feeling offended by your responses; I don't feel misinformed. The above bolded sentence is just disgusting. I couldn't begin to tell you what being a parent means to me. If you had said that to me in person and I didn't have time to formulate a written response my reply would have been _very _different. 
And while you're fixated on the autism debate (and that I'm stupid for buying into a debunked myth) I've never said my issue with vaccines is it's link to autism. I'm well aware (and have stated in my responses) there is no proven link.

Originally Posted by *Darla* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I would fully acknowledge that there may be a small statistically connection between autism and vaccinations, and i agree scientists don't know conclusively that this link doesn't exist. and* I fully agree that more work should be done studying this issue, sadly the manufacturers of the vaccine have no vested interest in doing this*.
But you're missing my point, to not vaccinate creates inherent risks with the child that I believe are much greater than the possibility of autism. It is a tradeoff to be sure and based on that analysis of the statistics the prudent action is to vaccinate.

So true, I don't understand why the research isn't a bigger concern of the CDC's. Thank you for your thoughtful and polite debate. 
And I'll reiterate that we do vaccinate. I do not take this subject lightly. I am a stay at home mom, my son is not in daycare, he will meet vaccination requirements, just not on the CDC's schedule.

Originally Posted by *xjackie83* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I will definitely be using a modified schedule to vaccinate my future children. According to the Center of Disease Control by the time a child is one years old they should have approximately 19 vaccines! 19! 
I know as an adult how my body feels after I have one vaccine. I've sworn off getting a flu shot for myself because of how horrible and sick I get after wards and how my arm is numb for weeks afterwards.

I can't imagine what's going on inside an infants body as it gets injected with multiple vaccinations all at once.

I agree.


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## Andi (May 17, 2010)

I honestly canÂ´t believe that your child has to get 19 vaccinations until age 1 in the US...sure thatÂ´s not a typo and meant to say 10 or something?

I will make an informed decision about which exact vaccines my child will get, but I would generally stick to the healthcare guidelines. These guidelines were set up for a reason, and the benefits of vaccines outweigh the risks. The problem I do have is that the parent makes the decision for the child, and if a non-vaccinated child gets sick and suffers from severe consequences, itÂ´s the child that has to live with that for the rest of their life (and the parent has to live with that responsibility)

The whole point of mandatory vaccination is to achieve herd immunity. The higher the % of people who are vaccinated, the lower the risk of getting the disease for the non-vaccinated population.

We learned in med school that the US has almost eradicated measles due to years of mandatory vaccinations...IÂ´m guessing this is still true. The majority of the cases that do occur are related to foreign travellers. In Austria, a tiny country compared to the US (population around 8.5 million), we have a couple of deaths each year, due to measles-related complications. It has only been mandatory to report cases of measles since 2001!

To my knowledge you donÂ´t have to give schools any proof of your childÂ´s vaccination status here. A few vaccinations are mandatory in childhood to get healthcare benefits for your child, but after like age 6 or so itÂ´s completely up to the parent to decide.


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## MakeupByMe (May 17, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Johnnie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Here's a book listing for anyone interested. My mom has the Kevin trudeau books, It is sooooo interesting the things you find out Very informative &amp; true when you really think about it Thanks !!!





Wow Loving the debate About this subject its good to learn others decisions around the world &amp; why you all feel that way!!!!


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## Johnnie (May 17, 2010)

Quote:
my uncle had polio. Its not easy when the parents make the decision and the child has to suffer from that misinformed decision. Originally Posted by *audrey2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif the above bolded sentence is just disgusting. ^this!
Monet, here are few of MY reasons why I've chosen not to vaccinate. I couldn't resist after the above mentioned. These are for informational purposes only for anyone interested. Not looking into getting into a nasty, get me nowhere debate over something that's not gonna change my mind. And to conclude vax'd children can still get those diseases.

"The 'victory over epidemics' was not won by medical science or by doctors--and certainly not by vaccines.....the decline...has been the result of technical, social and hygienic improvements and especially of improved nutrition. Here the role of the potato...deserves special mention.....Consider carefully whether you want to let yourself or your children undergo the dangerous, controversial, ineffective and no longer necessary procedure called vaccination, because the claim that vaccinations are the cause for the decline of infectious diseases is utter nonsense."--The Vaccination Nonsense (2004 Lectures)---Dr. med. G. Buchwald ISBN 3-8334-2508-3 page 108.

"If people are worried about endemic smallpox, it disappeared from this country not because of our mass herd immunity. It disappeared because of our economic development. And that's why it disappeared from Europe and many other countries, and it will not be sustained here, even if there were several importations, I'm sure. It's not from universal vaccination."----Dr. Mack

"All infectious diseases decreased without vaccinations. Not only did vaccines have no influence over the decrease of the diseases, the contrary is true, they slowed down the downward trend of all diseases. The best example for this is polio. After the majority of people were vaccinated, severe epidemics occurred, such as in 1962 in the German speaking countries, after vaccination had been in full force for 3 years. Dr Buchwald carefully collected the facts in his book, which prove this fact beyond doubt for all infectious diseases38."----Anita Petek-Dimmer

"According to the records of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, from 1911 to 1935 the four leading causes of childhood deaths from infectious diseases in the U.S.A. were diptheria, pertussis, scarlet fever, and measles. However, by 1945 the combined death rates from these causes had declined by 95% before the implementation of mass vaccine programs."--Dr Buttram MD

From 1901--1910 there were on average 10,548 measles deaths per year which would be the equivalent of around 21,096 with todays population. Before the vaccine deaths had reduced to around 100. Measles deaths had decline by 99.5% before vaccination from 1901-1910.

"Up to 90% of the total decline in the death rate of children between 1860-1965 because of whooping cough, scarlet fever, diptheria, and measles occured before the introduction of immunisations and antibiotics."---Dr Archie Kalokerinos, M.D.

"The measles death rate decreased by more than 95% before the vaccine was introduced (1915-1958)."--Neil Miller (p26 Vaccines)

"The decline in infectious diseases in developed countries had nothing to do with vaccinations, but with the decline in poverty and hunger (Dr. Buchwald draws the Committee’s attention to a series of about 50 graphs in his book which show that vaccinations have no effect on the decline of infectious diseases).--Dr Buchwald, M.D.

Vaccination Liberation Information

Vaccination Debate

K.N.O.W. Vaccines - Frequently Asked Questions

I'd probably take up a few more pages if I listed every reference.


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## divadoll (May 18, 2010)

I guess I just don't think that parents should knowingly risk their children's health by not immunizing. My grandparents had 8 children and I suppose they were lax in their records on who was immunized and who was not. One of my uncle's leg from polio is completely degenerated and he walks with a limp. Obviously, this photo is not of my uncle but this is what I'm talking about. Your parents immunized you to keep you from these diseases. I'm sorry for offending if I offended but I feel very strongly about this as it affects the whole population and not just a couple of people. My uncle blames my grandparents for his condition because he was a baby and they should have looked out for him. Maybe its different when people are talking about hypotheticals. I saw the reality.


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## Andi (May 18, 2010)

A question for the people who donÂ´t believe in the benefits of vaccinating: Why do you think vaccinating is still as strongly recommended as it is if all those infectuous disease are gone anyway due to better hygiene, nutrition etc (which definitely played a big role, we can all agree with that!)?

Do you think the pharmaceutical companies just want to make money? Other reasons?

Originally Posted by *Johnnie* /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^this!
Monet, here are few of MY reasons why I've chosen not to vaccinate. I couldn't resist after the above mentioned. These are for informational purposes only for anyone interested. Not looking into getting into a nasty, get me nowhere debate over something that's not gonna change my mind. And to conclude vax'd children can still get those diseases.

"The 'victory over epidemics' was not won by medical science or by doctors--and certainly not by vaccines.....the decline...has been the result of technical, social and hygienic improvements and especially of improved nutrition. Here the role of the potato...deserves special mention.....Consider carefully whether you want to let yourself or your children undergo the dangerous, controversial, ineffective and no longer necessary procedure called vaccination, because the claim that vaccinations are the cause for the decline of infectious diseases is utter nonsense."--The Vaccination Nonsense (2004 Lectures)---Dr. med. G. Buchwald ISBN 3-8334-2508-3 page 108.

"If people are worried about endemic smallpox, it disappeared from this country not because of our mass herd immunity. It disappeared because of our economic development. And that's why it disappeared from Europe and many other countries, and it will not be sustained here, even if there were several importations, I'm sure. It's not from universal vaccination."----Dr. Mack

"All infectious diseases decreased without vaccinations. Not only did vaccines have no influence over the decrease of the diseases, the contrary is true, they slowed down the downward trend of all diseases. The best example for this is polio. After the majority of people were vaccinated, severe epidemics occurred, such as in 1962 in the German speaking countries, after vaccination had been in full force for 3 years. Dr Buchwald carefully collected the facts in his book, which prove this fact beyond doubt for all infectious diseases38."----Anita Petek-Dimmer

"According to the records of the Metropolitan Life Insurance Company, from 1911 to 1935 the four leading causes of childhood deaths from infectious diseases in the U.S.A. were diptheria, pertussis, scarlet fever, and measles. However, by 1945 the combined death rates from these causes had declined by 95% before the implementation of mass vaccine programs."--Dr Buttram MD

From 1901--1910 there were on average 10,548 measles deaths per year which would be the equivalent of around 21,096 with todays population. Before the vaccine deaths had reduced to around 100. Measles deaths had decline by 99.5% before vaccination from 1901-1910.

"Up to 90% of the total decline in the death rate of children between 1860-1965 because of whooping cough, scarlet fever, diptheria, and measles occured before the introduction of immunisations and antibiotics."---Dr Archie Kalokerinos, M.D.

"The measles death rate decreased by more than 95% before the vaccine was introduced (1915-1958)."--Neil Miller (p26 Vaccines)

"The decline in infectious diseases in developed countries had nothing to do with vaccinations, but with the decline in poverty and hunger (Dr. Buchwald draws the Committee’s attention to a series of about 50 graphs in his book which show that vaccinations have no effect on the decline of infectious diseases).--Dr Buchwald, M.D.

Vaccination Liberation Information

Vaccination Debate

K.N.O.W. Vaccines - Frequently Asked Questions

I'd probably take up a few more pages if I listed every reference.

Love this list from the Vaccination Liberation website:
_If the following factors are useful in controlling contagious disease:_

Sanitation. (Includes clean water, clean air, clean food, clean environment.)

Quality nutrition, year around, not just seasonable.

Hygiene.

Insect control.

*Belief that one is immune.*

Joy, optimism, thankfulness and confidence, and all other factors which make for rational scientific living, also known as *"Godly living"*.

Quarantine.

Does vaccination belong in this above list?

no comment


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## Geek2 (May 18, 2010)

If there is no link between autism and vaccines then why is it that the children in the USA get total of 36 vaccines under the age of 5 and the autism rate is 1 in 110, 1 in 58 in boys and in the scandinavian countries the they get 11-13 vaccines and the autism rate is 1 in 716 to 1 in 2000? Also the USA has the highest infant mortality rate compared to other developed countries.

The problem with vaccines is that they are necessary to keep us healthy but no entity wants to make the ingredients in them safer because money controls everything. It all comes down to the pharmaceutical industry profits not the health of our children. So parents are forced to do the research and ask the questions themselves. Novartis' 1st quarter of 2010 profits rose by 49% due to pandemic flu vaccines.  The reason H1N1 hype was so big was because of the billions of dollars at stake with vaccine that was developed and the potential profits involved. Further studies in Canada showed that people who got the regular flu vaccine were more at risk of getting sick with H1N1 yet the health officials in the USA continue to urge americans to get both the flu and the H1N1 vaccine. I know many families with children who had H1N1 and it was a fairly mild disease but because of the amount of unused H1N1 vaccines and the billions of dollars involved, people are still urged to get the vaccine.


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## reesesilverstar (May 18, 2010)

I have a question. If it's to our benefit that we herd vaccinate, why doesn't the pharmaceutical industry extensively test their products and eliminate or replace the harmful compounds? Why is it that changes are made only by parents' refusal and pressure to test and remove? If they were motivated by good health and not $$$, why wouldn't this be the protocol?

If I could thank you, Reija, I would!


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## Johnnie (May 18, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Andi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif A question for the people who donÂ´t believe in the benefits of vaccinating: Why do you think vaccinating is still as strongly recommended as it is if all those infectuous disease are gone anyway due to better hygiene, nutrition etc (which definitely played a big role, we can all agree with that!)? Do you think the pharmaceutical companies just want to make money? Other reasons?

Yes, absolutely. Why not? They're making so much money from these pharmaceutical companies why would they stop now. Several of the CDC and the FDA members that vote on the vaccines being given on the market today own patents for them.Call me a conspiracy theoriest or whatever but just because it's the norm and it's recommended by "most" not "all" doesn't mean I'm gonna follow. The CDC allows members THREE conflict of interest WAIVERS every year. No questions asked. Is public health REALLY their only concern? And yes, Drs get paid to give vaccines.


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## xjackie83 (May 18, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Andi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I honestly canÂ´t believe that your child has to get 19 vaccinations until age 1 in the US...sure thatÂ´s not a typo and meant to say 10 or something? It's not a typo. I counted them yesterday to make sure. Infants in America are suppose to have 19 vaccines by their first birthday. 
I understand the importance of vaccines, especially when traveling to other countries or if you aren't a stay at home mom why does a child have to get so many shots?

The last known case of polio spreading in America was in 1993. Yet a child has to have three different polio shots before the age of one.


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## Darla (May 18, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Reija* /img/forum/go_quote.gif If there is no link between autism and vaccines then why is it that the children in the USA get total of 36 vaccines under the age of 5 and the autism rate is 1 in 110, 1 in 58 in boys and in the scandinavian countries the they get 11-13 vaccines and the autism rate is 1 in 716 to 1 in 2000? Also the USA has the highest infant mortality rate compared to other developed countries..

I appreciate your statistics, but the problem is we are comparing apples and oranges. We are comparing two entirely different populations and there is a myriad of differences that make direct comparisons immpossible. For a starter the vaccines themselves may be entirely different even if they are for a similar disease. There are environmental &amp; dietary factors that may the cause. There is no definitive cause linkage. 
Not to be controversial, but I did find statistics that seemed to contradict what you stated above. This is from Autism Speaks.org ,  link



*9. What have been the recent findings in international autism epidemiology in terms of prevalence around the world?*

More than forty years ago, the first survey of autism was done in the United Kingdom and suggested the prevalence of autism in young children to occur at a rate of 4 per 10,000 (or 1/2,500). More recent studies have estimated prevalence to be approximately 6.6 per 1,000 (or 1/150) children in the United States, and as many as 12 in 1,000 (or 1/80) children with an ASD in Europe and Scandinavia. Most studies have taken place in select areas of relatively developed nations and communities and have used strikingly different methods to estimate prevalence. Further, very little is known to date about the occurrence of ASDs in low-resource territories with limited to no public health infrastructure (see Table and Map).


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## Dragonfly (May 18, 2010)

One reason that more kids are getting diagnosed with autism is that the criteria has broadened to include mild symptoms. Same with Bipolar Disorder and ADHD - easier to get the label now as doctors are accepting many symptoms that would have been rejected earlier. Note the increase from 40 to 60 per 10,000!!!

*Prevalence of autism in Canada*

Autism is now recognized as the most common neurological disorder affecting children and one of the most common developmental disabilities:

* Most recent epidemiological studies show that the prevalence has increased from 40 to 60 per 10,000 which represents approximately 190,000 Canadians

* Approximately one in 165 children have an ASD

* Number of cases is increasing worldwide

Reference:

Fombonne, E., 2003: Modern Views of Autism, Can. J. Psychiatry, 48:503-505.

Fombonne, E., 2003: Epidemiology of autism and other pervasive developmental disorders: an update. J. Autism.Dev. Disord. 33:365-381

(Fombonne E, Zakarian R, Bennett A, Meng L, McLean-Heywood D. Pervasive developmental disorders in Montreal, Quebec, Canada: prevalence and links with immunizations. Pediatrics. 2006 Jul;118(1):e139-50).

Autism Society Canada

By the way, In Canada, the pharmaceutical companies do not get a kick back from the medical community. So there is no need to accused them of having an agenda.


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## divadoll (May 19, 2010)

Do Americans pay for the children's vaccinations?


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## Darla (May 19, 2010)

Originally Posted by *divadoll* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do Americans pay for the children's vaccinations? yes it all depends on what your insurance plan calls for.


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## divadoll (May 19, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Darla* /img/forum/go_quote.gif yes it all depends on what your insurance plan calls for. IC. All of that is free for EVERY child in Canada. I had to pay for my hep vaccine before I went to Mexico but that's part of the kids vaccination program regardless of what plan you may have. My daughter will also get her vaccine against the human papillomavirus that is linked cervical cancer.


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## Darla (May 19, 2010)

Ahhh Canada i think they have it together on this stuff.

I was up there visiting in the winter and was even able to get the flu vaccine for myself for free.


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## MakeupByMe (May 19, 2010)

Originally Posted by *divadoll* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do Americans pay for the children's vaccinations? around where i am Its all free Whether your insured or not otherwise There would be alot of kids not in school!!!


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## divadoll (May 20, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Darla* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Ahhh Canada i think they have it together on this stuff. 
I was up there visiting in the winter and was even able to get the flu vaccine for myself for free.

Thats when I got everyone their H1N1 and regular flu vaccines. Good thing as a few people I know had gotten H1N1 and were very very sick. 1 friend ended up in the hospital in a coma for a month from H1N1!


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## missmignonne (May 20, 2010)

Originally Posted by *xjackie83* /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's not a typo. I counted them yesterday to make sure. Infants in America are suppose to have 19 vaccines by their first birthday. 
I understand the importance of vaccines, especially when traveling to other countries or if you aren't a stay at home mom why does a child have to get so many shots?

The last known case of polio spreading in America was in 1993. Yet a child has to have three different polio shots before the age of one.

I thought that was pretty senseless myself. I don't understand why infants have to receive so many of the same shot at a younger age when one or two will suffice once they are older. As for my children, my first became very ill after her 3 month shots. [she slept 18 hours straight and was not able to be aroused even for feedings] I was assured this was normal by her doctor. Though I was disturbed by the first experience, she got her next set at 6 months with the same result. At that point I decided she would only get "catch-up" vaccines as they don't seem to be clustered and that some I would avoid altogether. 


Originally Posted by *divadoll* /img/forum/go_quote.gif IC. All of that is free for EVERY child in Canada. I had to pay for my hep vaccine before I went to Mexico but that's part of the kids vaccination program regardless of what plan you may have. My daughter will also get her vaccine against the human papillomavirus that is linked cervical cancer. OMG don't even get me started on that darn HPV vaccine.

..

According to the CDC:


*Are there specific types of HPV that are associated with cancer?* Some types of HPV are referred to as â€œlow-riskâ€ viruses because they rarely cause lesions that develop into cancer. HPV types that are more likely to lead to the development of cancer are referred to as â€œhigh-risk.â€ Both high-risk and low-risk types of HPV can cause the growth of abnormal cells, but only the high-risk types of HPV lead to cancer. Sexually transmitted, high-risk HPVs include types 16, 18, 31, 33, 35, 39, 45, 51, 52, 56, 58, 59, 66, 68, and 73. These high-risk types of HPV cause growths on the cervix that are usually flat and nearly invisible, as compared with the external warts caused by low-risk types HPVâ€“6 and HPVâ€“11. HPV types 16 and 18 together cause about 70 percent of cervical cancers. *It is important to note, however, that the great majority of high-risk HPV infections go away on their own and do not cause cancer.* 


*What are the risk factors for HPV infection and cervical cancer?* Having many sexual partners is a risk factor for HPV infection. Although _most HPV infections go away on their own without causing any type of abnormality_, infection with high-risk HPV types increases the chance that mild abnormalities will develop and progress to more severe abnormalities or cervical cancer. *However, even among the women who do develop abnormal cell changes with high-risk types of HPV, only a small percentage would develop cervical cancer if the abnormal cells were not removed*. As a general rule, the more severe the abnormal cell change, the greater the risk of cancer. _Studies suggest that whether a woman develops cervical cancer depends on a variety of factors acting together with high-risk HPVs. The factors that may increase the risk of cervical cancer in women with HPV infection include smoking and having many children_.

In 2006, the U.S. Food and Drug Administration (FDA) approved GardasilÂ®, a vaccine that is highly effective in preventing infection with types 16 and 18, two â€œhigh-riskâ€ HPVs that cause most (70 percent) cervical cancers, and types 6 and 11, which cause most (90 percent) genital warts.

So apparently, preventing relatively nonthreatening "low-risk" forms of the human papillomavirus is just as important as cervical cancer. I would feel better getting my girls vaccinated with this IF it prevented the 3 other types that cause another 20 percent of cervical cancers.

However, it doesn't... and even if it did chances are one wouldn't even get cervical cancer in the first place - even if HPV was contracted [which is most likely when following unsafe sexual practices].

Just my feelings on the issue.


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## divadoll (May 20, 2010)

Originally Posted by *xjackie83* /img/forum/go_quote.gif The last known case of polio spreading in America was in 1993. Yet a child has to have three different polio shots before the age of one. There's a big difference between spread and case. We just had a lovely outbreak of measles.
Measles outbreak spreads north in B.C.

Number of cases hits 44 provincewide

Last Updated: Friday, April 16, 2010 | 9:13 AM PT

CBC News

*The B.C. Centre for Disease Control says 44 cases of the measles have now been confirmed in B.C. since March. (CBC) *

B.C.'s measles outbreak appears to have spread to northeastern areas of the province, after doctors confirmed two new cases of the disease in the Fort St. John and Fort Nelson areas on Thursday.

The new cases bring the total number of confirmed cases in the province to 44, not including suspected but unconfirmed cases, said the B.C. Centre for Disease Control.

Northern Health spokeswoman Eryn Collins said the virus had not been detected in the north in more than six years and the two new cases involve people who weren't immunized.

"They are cases that have occurred in both adults and children and in all of the cases, they're occurring in individuals who don't have the adequate protection from the disease whether through immunization or previous exposure to the measles virus," she said Thursday.

"We're just reiterating the importance of people ensuring that their vaccinations are up to date. We're encouraging individuals who were born after 1956 contact their doctor or nearest public health unit to make arrangements to be vaccinated," said Collins.

*First detected in Vancouver area*

The news comes after eight Vancouver students tested positive earlier this week, prompting school officials to send their unvaccinated classmates home for three weeks.

The disease was first detected in a Vancouver area household and a southern Interior household in late March, and was linked to unvaccinated travellers returning from overseas.

"It is suspected that at least two out-of-country visitors brought measles into Vancouver sometime in February or early March, as two separate strains of the virus have been identified," said a statement from the B.C. Centre for Disease Control earlier this week.

So far, 17 cases of the measles have been detected in the Fraser Valley, 17 in the Vancouver area, seven in the southern Interior, two in northern B.C. and one on Vancouver island.

Read more: CBC News - British Columbia - Measles outbreak spreads north in B.C.


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## Darla (May 20, 2010)

Originally Posted by *xjackie83* /img/forum/go_quote.gif The last known case of polio spreading in America was in 1993. Yet a child has to have three different polio shots before the age of one. Ok but Polio is NOT eradicated world wide. It is still in places in Africa and could spread in a new population where people are not immunized. That is why it is still required. Here is a related article from the NYTimes. 
* Polio: New Outbreak of Polio in Africa Prompts Appeal for Vaccine Financing *





The New York Times

By DONALD G. McNEIL Jr.

Published: April 20, 2009

The International Federation of Red Cross and Red Crescent Societies has made an emergency appeal for millions of dollars to fight a new polio outbreak across Africa.

Skip to next paragraph *Related*

*Health Guide: Poliomyelitis*

“Polio is spreading again, including in countries such as Uganda which had been polio-free for more than a decade,” said Dr. Tamman Aloudat, who is in charge of health emergencies for the federation.

Despite more than 20 years of eradication efforts, two strains of polio have spread out from northern Nigeria and northern India — both places where many Muslims have resisted vaccines because of rumors that vaccine efforts are a Western plot to sterilize them.

Particularly worrisome, Dr. Aloudat said, is that polio has again reached Port Sudan, a ferry port on the way to Mecca. From 2004 to 2006, pilgrims are believed to have spread polio from Port Sudan to Saudi Arabia, Somalia, Indonesia and Yemen, outbreaks that cost more than $150 million to smother.

Since January 2008, polio has been newly found in 15 African countries.

Gene sequencing of the virus taken from paralyzed patients found that most cases had spread east and west from Nigeria along the southern edge of the Sahara. But one strain went from India to Angola and then to two other countries.

There are only four countries in which the disease has never been eradicated: Nigeria, India, Pakistan and Afghanistan. But it appears to be re-establishing itself in Angola, Chad, Niger, Sudan and the Democratic Republic of Congo.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

for historical context of these arguments this is from 1802 and deals with the cowpox vaccine courtesy of Wikipedia


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## perlanga (May 20, 2010)

When I was 13 I got the chicken poxs and had never recieved the chicken pox vaccine, because I had lived in Mexico as a little girl and somehow missed it, and I guess my mom never really thought about when I moved to Michigan. When I got it, it had to be the worse case I've ever seen, no vaccine plus the fact I was older. I was COVERED in chicken pox. I had to go to the hospital, because I had fainted and there was so much pressure on my brain from spinal fluid!!!! I was out of school for exactly four weeks and to this day 10 years later I have puffy looking chicken pox scars all over my abdomen, hips, and upper arms. To think this could have been prevented makes me so angry!!!!!!

I don't believe that vaccines are causing these illnesses. Whose to say that kids just developed these things on their own, vaccines aren't to blame.

I heard that there are small outbreaks of measles going around to kids that are not being vaccinated, these can entirely be prevented.


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## divadoll (May 20, 2010)

The article I posted is from April. This is very recent and people not vaccinated are contracting measles when they could have been protected. It didn't come from Canada, the source was out of country from at least 2 people bringing it with them to Vancouver like a welcome gift! This could be polio, rhebella, or mumps or anything that could have been preventable.


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## perlanga (May 20, 2010)

Originally Posted by *divadoll* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Do Americans pay for the children's vaccinations? There might be a small co pay for people who go to their personal doctor, but if ANYBODY can get it for free by going to their local county health agency. They give vaccines absolutely free as well as STD test and tuberculosis test.


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## divadoll (May 20, 2010)

There are no co-pays in Canada. Doctors are gov't employees not of any drug company or hospital. We pay for prescriptions but if you have an extended medical plan, they cover a % of prescriptions. Usually no lower than 70% and if both of you have a plan, then you basically just pay your yearly deductible (around $100 or less/yr) and the rest is covered. Some you are out of pocket then claim, others get a card and you just pay the balance or team up with 2 cards and pay nothing at all.


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## AudreyNola (May 20, 2010)

Originally Posted by *missmignonne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I thought that was pretty senseless myself. I don't understand why infants have to receive so many of the same shot at a younger age when one or two will suffice once they are older. As for my children, my first became very ill after her 3 month shots. [she slept 18 hours straight and was not able to be aroused even for feedings] I was assured this was normal by her doctor. Though I was disturbed by the first experience, she got her next set at 6 months with the same result. At that point I decided she would only get "catch-up" vaccines as they don't seem to be clustered and that some I would avoid altogether. I was disturbed too - that's exactly how I felt. When my child's dr. ordered 4 vaccines in one day I didn't even question it, he's the healthcare professional, right? My child's behavior frightened me. There's got to be a better way. Totally agree on spacing them out and waiting until they're a bit older for the majority of vaccines.


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## divadoll (May 20, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Audrey2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif I was disturbed too - that's exactly how I felt. When my child's dr. ordered 4 vaccines in one day I didn't even question it, he's the healthcare professional, right? My child's behavior frightened me. There's got to be a better way. Totally agree on spacing them out and waiting until they're a bit older for the majority of vaccines. Your doctor orders them? In Canada, the vaccination schedule is published with a schedule according to age. There's not guessing. Each vaccine and what they are for are also listed.


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## AudreyNola (May 21, 2010)

Divadoll, the dr. was going by the recommended vaccine schedule but I feel like you're missing the point of my post. They don't want you to "guess" here either.


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## Darla (May 21, 2010)

well i was going to say this thread might have gotten a bit heated. no one likes to think they are not doing the best for their child.

i think the number of vaccinations seems to have increased and it all seems like the kids are suffering with having to get these other needles. in the long run this has got to be better than the possibility of them getting the disease itself. the risk is just not worth it.


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## divadoll (May 21, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Audrey2* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Divadoll, the dr. was going by the recommended vaccine schedule but I feel like you're missing the point of my post. They don't want you to "guess" here either. There really isn't a need to be patronizing. I'm Canadian. Perhaps I have missed your point and I'm trying to find out more information. From the threads in this forum, it is obvious we do it differently from Americans. I'm trying to find out how things are done there. 
We get a vaccine passport when the baby is born. It looks like a bank book. It lists the vaccines that are for 2, 4, 6, 12 and 18 month and the start of school. There are no recommendations on a schedule, its regimented by our health care system. They just sign off that it was done. When the child starts school, we bring this passport to school as proof of immunizations.

Its not a competition of what is better. I'm just trying to find out more and stating information regarding our vaccination programs.


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## MakeupByMe (May 21, 2010)

^^^^^Thats exactly how we do it here to at least where im at we have that yellow card or passport thing as well


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## Adrienne (May 21, 2010)

Originally Posted by *divadoll* /img/forum/go_quote.gif Your doctor orders them? In Canada, the vaccination schedule is published with a schedule according to age. There's not guessing. Each vaccine and what they are for are also listed. It's done exactly the same here. There's no guessing. I believe the reason that Audrey mentioned the "recommended vaccine schedule" is bc that is what it's technically called. Here's the link. The reason it's recommended (and this is the way that it was explained to me by my child's pediatrician) is bc while the age listed is when they want the child to take the vaccine, whether the child can take the vaccine or not will depend on the doctor's recommendation on a case by case basis. The first thing they did with my child is ask if he has recently been ill or is he on certain medications or have other health issues that may interfere with the vaccines. Some vaccines may be taken earlier or later if a parent chooses not to have so many vaccines administered at one time. After all, what may have worked with one patient does not neccessarily mean it will work on the next



.
Edit: Oh yea our immunization cards are pink. My son doesn't like that lol.


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## AudreyNola (May 21, 2010)

Originally Posted by *divadoll* /img/forum/go_quote.gif *Sometimes you can't make people understand your point no matter how logical it is.* These are the exceptions to the rule and the 1%of the 100%. Hopefully, nothing bad will happen as a result of their decision not to vaccinate. The pot calls the kettle... patronizing


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## divadoll (May 21, 2010)

All I can say is that I hope that your children grow up to be happy and healthy adults as we as parents hope for our own.


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## divadoll (May 21, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Adrienne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif It's done exactly the same here. There's no guessing. I believe the reason that Audrey mentioned the "recommended vaccine schedule" is bc that is what it's technically called. Here's the link. The reason it's recommended (and this is the way that it was explained to me by my child's pediatrician) is bc while the age listed is when they want the child to take the vaccine, whether the child can take the vaccine or not will depend on the doctor's recommendation on a case by case basis. The first thing they did with my child is ask if he has recently been ill or is he on certain medications or have other health issues that may interfere with the vaccines. Some vaccines may be taken earlier or later if a parent chooses not to have so many vaccines administered at one time. After all, what may have worked with one patient does not neccessarily mean it will work on the next



.
Edit: Oh yea our immunization cards are pink. My son doesn't like that lol.

My son's book was pink and my daughters was blue. Its ok tho because its not really theirs to walk around with.


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## Adrienne (May 22, 2010)

^^Yea that's what I told him. The whole time he was nagging saying "Mommy, ask the nurse if I can have a blue one, pink is for girls." Lol! However he quickly forgot as soon as his got his four shots.


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## divadoll (May 22, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Adrienne* /img/forum/go_quote.gif ^^Yea that's what I told him. The whole time he was nagging saying "Mommy, ask the nurse if I can have a blue one, pink is for girls." Lol! However he quickly forgot as soon as his got his four shots. LOL! I bet he totally forgot after his shots.


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## Johnnie (Jun 1, 2010)

Mercury (Thimerosal) and Autism


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## Darla (Jun 1, 2010)

I recall coming across this topic about Thimersol when this thread first started.

It is well established that pure Mercury is a dangerous chemical when introduced into the human body. It is mentioned that Thimersol is 49% by volume a Mercury compound. My only caution there is there are chemical elements that in their pure form are toxic but in a compound form are quite benign. I am not saying that Thimersol is completely benign or that it might not have a slight linkage to autism for the small percentage of the population that is sensitive to it. It still comes down to benefits vs. risks.

For anyone else's benefit Thimersol is a Mercury compound that is used in a wide variety of vaccines as a chemical preservative in a wide variety of vaccines. Here is the complete list.  If Thimersol is a huge concern for someone then they would probably want to steer clear of all vaccines.

I am not a doctor so I don't have access to all the studies, like the New England Journal of Medicine, etc. To be honest I would go with whoever authored the section in Wikipedia on this topic since I have neither the time, expertise or inclination to further research this topic and whenever someone makes a statement there is some legitimacy to their claims since all statements are credited. From Wikipedia:

_The thiomersal controversy is between those who claim that vaccines containing the mercury-based preservative thiomersal contribute to the development of autism and other brain development disorders[1] and those who support the current scientific consensus that there is no convincing scientific evidence supporting these claims.[2][3]_

Thiomersal is an organomercury compound used as a preservative in vaccines since the 1930s to prevent bacterial and fungal contamination.[4][5] In July 1999, following a review of mercury-containing food and drugs, the Centers for Disease Control (CDC) and the American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP) asked vaccine makers to remove thiomersal from vaccines as quickly as possible as a purely precautionary measure, and it was rapidly phased out of most U.S. and European vaccines.[6][7] Many parents took the action to remove thiomersal as indicating that the preservative was harmful, and there have been thousands of lawsuits filed in the U.S. to seek damages from alleged toxicity from vaccines, including those purportedly caused by thiomersal.[6][8]

Major scientific and medical bodies such as the Institute of Medicine and World Health Organization[9] as well as governmental agencies such as the Food and Drug Administration[4] and the CDC[10] reject any role for thiomersal in autism or other neurodevelopmental disorders. Multiple lines of scientific evidence have been cited to support this conclusion: for example, the clinical symptoms of mercury poisoning differ significantly from those of autism.[11] Most conclusively, eight major studies (as of 2008) examined the effect of reductions or removal of thiomersal from vaccines. All eight demonstrated that autism rates failed to decline despite removal of thiomersal, arguing strongly against a causative role.[12][13][14][15][16][17][18][19]

OK granted Wikipedia is always considered a lame source but they do point you to a myriad of other scholarly sources that can be checked out. But i did like the point that was made.


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## charlybrown (Jun 1, 2010)

I already vaccinate my little child, I know of cases of children that have been affected by some viruses with permanent effects, and could be avoided with a vaccine.


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## AudreyNola (Jun 2, 2010)

Super compelling video Johnnie, I encourage everyone in on this debate to watch it.

As the video states, thimerosal is actually ethylmecury - not the stuff of thermometers. It is much more toxic than mercury; a scientist that got 2 drops on her _gloved_ hand died from the poisoning. They address the write off of "trace amounts" of thimerosal - a single vaccine containing a trace amount exceeds the FDA approved "safe" amount for infants, not to mention vaccines are usually given in clusters.

They also stress autism as an epidemic. When I think about the lottery I won in getting my sweet son it makes me so sad to think he could have been different - removed, without speech, even aggressive. My heart goes out to parents of autistic children and to the people who are trying to provoke change in a system that is failing at prevention (and possibly encouraging the epidemic).


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## Andi (Jun 2, 2010)

just a thought: whenever a disease rises in incidence it also has be taken into consideration that the disease might just be diagnosed more often due to doctors being more informed and actually MAKING the diagnosis. Or the guidelines that need to be met to be diagnosed might have been changed over the years. Did that make sense?

Good examples: ADD, OCD etc. Years ago people probably didnÂ´t even know much about these conditions, and know theyÂ´re "everywhere"


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## Darla (Jun 2, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Andi* /img/forum/go_quote.gif just a thought: whenever a disease rises in incidence it also has be taken into consideration that the disease might just be diagnosed more often due to doctors being more informed and actually MAKING the diagnosis. Or the guidelines that need to be met to be diagnosed might have been changed over the years. Did that make sense?
Good examples: ADD, OCD etc. Years ago people probably didnÂ´t even know much about these conditions, and know theyÂ´re "everywhere"

Totally agree and i believe Carolyn mentioned that point as well. So that's why I really take it with a grain of salt when someone claims we have an epidemic going on. We very well might had a similar number of cases all along, its just that they are better identified now.


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## AudreyNola (Jun 2, 2010)

Andi, you point definitely makes sense, I just don't agree with it. While there are cases of autistic adults the majority of cases are under age 18.

DAVID KIRBY: IF AUTISM HAS ALWAYS BEEN WITH US... - AGE OF AUTISM

California's Autism Increase Not Due To Better Counting, Diagnosis

Far too many new cases to wave away autism as an age old condition that just wasn't diagnosed before. The second article links the cause to chemicals (mercury compounds among them). It makes an interesting point that most research money goes toward looking for genetic links to autism and there is great need for environmental factors to have as much focus in research.

There are twice as many articles about the increase of autism being attributed to increased awareness/diagnosis but Big Medicine and BIG Money are throwing all their weight behind this theory. Of course it's in their best interests to say autism and ADHD have always been around, it's no one's fault that way and no one has to do anything about it. What is popular is not always right...

This is from autismspeaks.org: "Today, it is estimated that one in every 110 children is diagnosed with autism, making it more common than childhood cancer, juvenile diabetes and pediatric AIDS combined. An estimated 1.5 million individuals in the U.S. and tens of millions worldwide are affected by autism. Government statistics suggest the prevalence rate of autism is increasing 10-17 percent annually." Any issue can be framed so that it benefits one viewpoint over another, but I feel like saying autism is not an epidemic is discounting to the millions of families affected by it.

I realize I'm not going to convince anyone of my point of view that has already made their decision on this subject; just as my mind is made up. So while the back and forth might be pointless, I do think it's important for both sides of the debate to be represented.


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## Johnnie (Jun 2, 2010)

Originally Posted by *audreynola* /img/forum/go_quote.gif andi, you point definitely makes sense, i just don't agree with it.me either.

while there are cases of autistic adults the majority of cases are under age 18.

david kirby: If autism has always been with us... - age of autism

california's autism increase not due to better counting, diagnosis

far too many new cases to wave away autism as an age old condition that just wasn't diagnosed before. The second article links the cause to chemicals (mercury compounds among them). It makes an interesting point that most research money goes toward looking for genetic links to autism and there is great need for environmental factors to have as much focus in research.

There are twice as many articles about the increase of autism being attributed to increased awareness/diagnosis but big medicine and big money are throwing all their weight behind this theory. Of course it's in their best interests to say autism and adhd have always been around, it's no one's fault that way and no one has to do anything about it. *what is popular is not always right...*

^ amen

this is from autismspeaks.org: "today, it is estimated that one in every 110 children is diagnosed with autism, making it more common than childhood cancer, juvenile diabetes and pediatric aids combined. An estimated 1.5 million individuals in the u.s. And tens of millions worldwide are affected by autism. Government statistics suggest the prevalence rate of autism is increasing 10-17 percent annually." any issue can be framed so that it benefits one viewpoint over another, but i feel like saying autism is not an epidemic is discounting to the millions of families affected by it.

I realize i'm not going to convince anyone of my point of view that has already made their decision on this subject; just as my mind is made up. So while the back and forth might be pointless, *i do think it's important for both sides of the debate to be represented.*

very true indeed.i think our job here is done. Lol


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## Dragonfly (Jun 2, 2010)

My son has had all his vaccines so how come he does not have autism?

Is my son more resilient to the fillers that come with vaccines? No.

Are the vast majority of people that have had vaccines more resilient to fillers that come with vacines? No

*So rather than focus on the small percentage of people that have developed autism - please explain to me why other people don't get autism, yet they get the same vaccines. *


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## Geek2 (Jun 3, 2010)

I listened to a conference call recently with Dr Bob Sears who has an autism book that just came out. He talked about how complex the issue is. The biggest theory is now that chemicals and toxins have something to do with it such as mother's exposure to chemicals prior to getting pregnant as well as during pregnancy as well as the infants exposure to chemicals. A good example of this is why pregnant women are advised to limit their consumption of canned tuna to one serving per week due to high mercury levels. Also research is looking into genetic dispositions. Dr Bob has several families in his practice that have autistic kids both vaccinated and unvaccinated. He is not anti vaccine he just advocates safer vaccination practices such as spreading the vaccines over time and not giving so many shots as once so that it's not so taxing on the immune system. Our first child was vaccinated on Dr William Sears' alternative vaccine schedule that gives the adequate amount of vaccines. The vaccines are just spread out more over time. Our son is very healthy today. Our daughter had a few vaccines but her immune system didn't do as well with them because she developed really high fevers and was totally out of it. We stopped vaccinating her after 6 months. We have almost a 4 month old boy and I'll have to make the decision on what to do with vaccines since his 4-month check up is coming up. We have held off vaccines until now because he is breastfed exclusively which gives immunity to a certain degree and we have wanted his immune system to mature more. I'm leaning towards not vaccinating but it's such a tough choice because I'm not antivaccine I just don't want my child to be a victim of receiving a vaccine that later is found contaminated or we find out that his immune system can't handle them and he becomes disabled as a result.

The Rotavirus vaccines was just found to have lethal pig virus contamination. If my child had received that I'd be worried right now. I don't think it's good idea to inject an infant with a solution that can be contaminated with additional particles or viruses other than the particular vaccine. The additives and the way the vaccines are produced concern me. I feel that there is not enough research done on vaccines because of the billions of dollars that are at stake. If more people choose not to vaccinate their children it would mean millions of dollars lost or if the vaccines were found harmful concussively it would mean billions of dollars lost. I don't think the pharmaceutical industry is very hot on possible shooting themselves in the foot by funding more vaccine research if vaccines are proven harmful. They can't take the chance due to money. It's a really tough subject for any parent to decide on. I urge every parent to do as much research as possible and ask the questions from the doctor.

Here is the article on the latest vaccine contamination:

Vaccine Safety Critics Call For RotaTeq Vaccine Recall &amp; Clean-Up

The National Vaccine Information Center (NVIC) joins with holistic health pioneer Dr. Joseph Mercola in calling for Merck to voluntarily recall its live rotavirus vaccine - RotaTeq – which is contaminated with parts of a lethal virus that infects pigs - porcine circovirus 2 (PCV2) - and publicly pledge to clean-up the vaccine.

On May 7th, GlaxoSmithKline (GSK) publicly pledged to re-formulate its rotavirus vaccine, Rotarix, by removing DNA from a non-lethal pig virus (PCV1). RotaTeq is contaminated with DNA from both PCV1 and PCV2. PCV2 is an aggressive virus that causes immune suppression, wasting disease and death in baby pigs.

“Responsible corporations voluntarily recall contaminated foods and drugs that could possibly compromise safety,” said NVIC Co-Founder &amp; President Barbara Loe Fisher. “When RotaTeq is squirted into the mouths of babies, how many doctors or parents know those babies are swallowing DNA from a virus that can injure and kill baby pigs?”

“No company marketing a product found to be contaminated should be given a free pass,” said Dr. Joseph Mercola. “It is always dangerous to assume safety. Vaccines contaminated with viral DNA that could evolve and infect humans cannot and should not be assumed to be safe,” said Dr. Mercola.

The FDA recommended in March that doctors temporarily suspend use of GSK’s Rotarix vaccine after an independent lab using new technology detected PCV1 DNA in the rotavirus vaccine given to infants 2 to 6 months of age. At a special FDA advisory committee meeting on May 7, NVIC called on the FDA to legally require manufacturers to adhere to regulations for testing of vaccines before and after licensure for contamination and also require stricter labeling standards to fully inform consumers about any foreign DNA content that remains in vaccines.

On May 14, the FDA withdrew its suspension of Rotarix vaccine recommendation and pronounced both vaccines safe, even though both remain contaminated and safety data on PCV2 contamination of RotaTeq was not evaluated by the FDA advisory committee.

NVIC and Mercola.com defend informed consent to vaccination and support public access to vaccines that meet high standards for proof of safety and effectiveness. “Rotavirus vaccine is not required for daycare or school entry,” said Fisher. “The American Academy of Pediatrics and doctors should be informing parents they have a choice and that one rotavirus vaccine is contaminated with DNA from a lethal pig virus while the other is not.”

Dr. Mercola pointed to the recent voluntary recall of medicines for children that were contaminated with unidentified “particles,” as well as past voluntary recalls of contaminated food products. “Why should for-profit vaccine corporations which, unlike other industries, are shielded from liability by our government, be different from any other company selling a product in the U.S.? The American consumer has a right to demand that the products they use are pure and free from contamination,” he said.


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## Geek2 (Jun 3, 2010)

Originally Posted by *divadoll* /img/forum/go_quote.gif 

Your doctor orders them? In Canada, the vaccination schedule is published with a schedule according to age. There's not guessing. Each vaccine and what they are for are also listed. 


It's interesting that children in Canada receive total of 28 vaccines "shots" prior to age 5 and in the USA they receive 36 vaccines. Why so many more in the USA? The worldwide mortality rank for children is 34 here in the USA and 20 in Canada. I wonder if it has anything to do with vaccines here.They now give the Hep B shot at the hospitals at birth here in the USA and that is not the practice anywhere else in the world. Why would you vaccinate an infant against Hep B when there is no possible way they can get the disease since they are not taking part in risk behavior such as drug use etc. The only way an infant can get it is from the mother if she has it during pregnancy. So again the question is why they give the vaccine at birth and we are the only country that has that policy? Could it be because of the profits of pharmaceutical companies? Just think how many infants are born daily here in the USA. You inject every infant with Hep B vaccine, you are guaranteed huge profits. Needless to say I declined the vaccines for our kids at birth. The interesting thing is that this Hep B vaccine policy is pretty recent because it was not standard practice when our first son was born 9 years ago but it was when our daughter was born 4 years ago and it still is today since our 2nd son was born 4 months ago. The amount of vaccines given have skyrocketed in the last 20-40 years. Just ask your parents how many vaccines you received as a child and compare that to the current recommended amount for your child. It's a mind boggling difference yet one can argue that no more lives are being saved today than 20-40 years ago. More vaccines are being developed and these are for diseases that are harmless. For example the shingles vaccine offered for adults. It doesn't save any lives. A person doesn't die or get injured from shingles so why get the vaccine?
Here is an excellent study regarding the number of vaccines required here in the USA vs other countries and the fact that the amount of vaccines given has tripled.


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## divadoll (Jun 3, 2010)

Originally Posted by *Reija* /img/forum/go_quote.gif A person doesn't die or get injured from shingles so why get the vaccine? You obviously have not asked anyone who has had shingles. I know at least 4 people who have had shingles and its a very painful thing to go thru. 
I personally managed to avoid shingles and instead had gotten a second bout of chicken pox.

Here's some literature about the gentle shingles:

Shingles Symptoms : Symptoms of Shingles

Shingles is a painful condition characterized by the appearance of a skin rash. This condition is caused by the vermicelli zoster virus and this virus also causes chicken pox disease. In fact once a person has had the chicken pox this virus remains within the body in a dormant or latent condition. When the immune system of the body becomes the weak the virus may get reactivated and this can result in appearance of shingles symptoms. The immune system may become weak when the person suffers from condition like Aids or is undergoing treatment like chemotherapy. Emotional stress may also result in reactivation of the virus and in most cases the exact cause for the reactivation of the virus is never found. Any individual who has suffered from chicken pox can develop shingles. However the shingles symptoms are most often seen in individuals who are around 60 years old.

The shingles symptoms begin with increased sensitivity of skin along with a burning pain. Some patients may also experience tickling or tingling along with numbness in the areas. In such a stage it is often difficult to determine the reason for the pain. The areas that are typically affected include the head, abdomen, neck, face and arm or leg. In rare cases areas of the face like the nose and eyes may also be affected.

Along with tingling of skin patients also tend to experience other problems like stomach ache, chills, diarrhea along with fever. Individuals may also experience tenderness in the lymph node areas in the initial stages. The shingles symptoms include a typical rash that starts with eruption of small blisters for a period of 3 to 5 days. These blisters erupt on a patch of red skin. The blisters tend to follow the individual nerve path areas and therefore tend to have a belt or band like appearance. In most cases only a single nerve level is involved and in rare cases multiple nerves may be involved.

With time the blisters fill with fluid and this fluid is initially clear but then it becomes cloudy in around 3 to 4 days. These blisters then pop and the area starts to ooze. Eventually the affected area crusts over and then heals. This outbreak may last for around three to four weeks. In some cases the blisters may not be observed as a part of shingles symptoms and yet intense pain may be experienced. In such cases diagnosis becomes problematic. Shingles is contagious and can be transmitted to other people but these individuals will develop chicken pox.

The shingles virus can be transmitted through direct skin contact with the fluid in the blisters. Once the blisters crust over the virus cannot be transmitted and the condition is no longer contagious. A common complication observed in this condition includes some shingles symptoms that result in postherpetic neuralgia.


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## Darla (Jun 3, 2010)

I wanted to follow up on something since I found some updated information from the Food &amp; Drug Administration on thimerosal in vaccines.

According to this information the majority of the latest formulations of vaccinations children are recommended to get contain NO thimerosal. If they do not have this preservative I task hen what is the problem? Why are vaccinations bad for the child?

Is there any other potential reasons that a small percentage of the population gets autism? That has not even been discussed, instead it is laid solely on the vaccines. I know of only one autistic child personally and came to find out that he had not gotten any vaccines prior to his diagnosis of autism. How did he get his autism?

So why would anyone even risk the potential of getting a serious disease when it can be prevented? It makes no sense. My personal example is when i was maybe 8 or so there was a friend of the family that had come from another country. He was here in the US maybe for a few weeks and had visited at my grandfather's house a number of times when i was there. He had developed a really bad cough and within a few days died of Tuberculosis. Now I had gotten my vaccination for Tuberculosis so myself and everyone in my family had to get tests to make sure we were safe. Mind you this was a time when Tuberculosis was thought to be eradicated! I am so thankful that I had gotten the vaccination because this was very much an optional vaccination at the time. I mentioned this incident and this topic to my mother recently and she told me it was even worse with the fear mongering that was perpetuated over the Polio vaccine in the 1950s. It took a while for this to be an accepted practice and eventually it was made mandatory.






I accept what the opponents of vaccination say that the causal effects of autism need to be studied more, vaccinations spread out more and possible alternatives to potentially harmful chemicals be replaced, but the bottom line is overall health of the population due to eradicating (almost) these deadly diseases is vastly better to what it was before.


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## LashTV (Jun 21, 2010)

i did all the vacines but the whooping cough. i never had it as a child and i decided nor would my daughter due to speaking with my parents and reading up on it.


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## Darla (Jan 7, 2011)

I think this new information is relevant

https://www.makeuptalk.com/forum/thread/114116/doctor-behind-study-linking-vaccine-to-autism-accused-of-deliberate-fraud#post_1734208


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## me0wmix (Mar 23, 2011)

Bottom Line: I do not vaccinate my child. He has had a few vaccinations, but that was when I was a new parent, and I didn't have enough information available to me.

In the state of WA you can easily file with the court to avoid vaccinations. Your child can still do all the things other children do, go to public schools, etc. And the best part is, is that you do not have to tell _anyone_ why it is you choose not to do so, whether it be religious, political, etc.


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## Geek2 (Nov 3, 2011)

Check *this* out


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## katana (Nov 3, 2011)

This is something that my husband to be and I have been disscussing. Neither one of us are in favor of vaccinations.

We are expecting our first child in April 2012, we will not be vaccinating.


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